Discussion:
Descaling with HCl
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jeremy ross
2004-08-23 05:56:59 UTC
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My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.

Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?

thanks

jeremy
Bolo
2004-08-23 10:33:39 UTC
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Don't do it. I am a chemist...it will eat the scale, but also your machine.
Coke contains phosphoric acid...and phosphoric acid would be a better choice
(properly diluted, of course). A 1% solution would do the trick.
Post by jeremy ross
My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
thanks
jeremy
unknown
2004-08-23 16:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by jeremy ross
My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.
DO NOT use acid. Citric acid powder is available at any home brewing
shop that sells beer supplies, or possibly even a home wine-making
supply store. Do an Internet search and you should be able to find it.

Try here: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=citric+acid+powder

BE SURE that it is 100% pure with no fillers, additives, or inert
ingredients (it doesn't have to be lab grade or anything).
In a pinch you can use unsweetened KoolAde but I personally do not
recommend it.


Randy "Wild Berrry flavored espresso" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
Barry Jarrett
2004-08-23 17:53:49 UTC
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Post by unknown
DO NOT use acid.
uuhhh..... is this really what you meant to write?
Ken Fox
2004-08-23 18:06:38 UTC
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Post by Barry Jarrett
Post by unknown
DO NOT use acid.
uuhhh..... is this really what you meant to write?
might be some "strawberry fields" history there but maybe we should just
drop it

ken
;-)
unknown
2004-08-24 15:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Jarrett
Post by unknown
DO NOT use acid.
uuhhh..... is this really what you meant to write?
Ca-rap.. no. I meant to say "stay away from the BROWN acid.."
;-)

Seriously, I wanted to say, "do not use hydrochloric acid." My thought
was that it is not a food-grade product in a solution strong enough to
efficiently remove scale in an assembled machine.

Randy "missing my new computer" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
O.Phooey
2004-08-23 21:19:05 UTC
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Post by jeremy ross
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
thanks
jeremy
I descale my teapot or coffee maker with vinegar brewed through the
machine. Takes 2 or 3 times to make it work like new. I'm a chemist as
well. I will sometimes use a stronger version (acetic acid, maybe
10%).
John McHarry
2004-08-24 00:20:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by jeremy ross
My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
When I used to home brew beer I used HCL to kill the alcalinity of the local
water. I had a liter of reagent grade !N acid and it took a tablespoon plus
something like a 1/2t to just kick it over the line. That was for about
five gallons of water. I used a pH meter to get it right. Worked just fine.

I see no reason why a proper dilution shouldn't work, but you are probably
entering into the realm of homeopathy to get it right.
MerryD
2004-08-24 11:57:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McHarry
Post by jeremy ross
My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
When I used to home brew beer I used HCL to kill the alcalinity of the local
water. I had a liter of reagent grade !N acid and it took a
tablespoon plus
Post by John McHarry
something like a 1/2t to just kick it over the line. That was for about
five gallons of water. I used a pH meter to get it right. Worked just fine.
I see no reason why a proper dilution shouldn't work, but you are probably
entering into the realm of homeopathy to get it right.
Try your local grocery that has a kosher section. Look for Sour Salt
(citric acid).

MerryD
Greg Scace
2004-08-24 16:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Yeah. My advice is don't be a lazy ass. Get the right stuff and do
the job correctly. 1st Line equipment and other espresso machine
sellers can supply you with Clean Caf, which works very well for
cleaning and descaling single boiler home espresso machines. When
used according to the instructions on the package, the innards of your
machine will become sparkling clean.

buying and using the right stuff will ease your nagging fears that you
might be screwing up because you won't be. Do it right.

-Greg (Yeah, I learned how to plump in espresso machines too) Scace
Post by jeremy ross
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
thanks
jeremy
webhead
2004-08-28 11:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by jeremy ross
My Silvia is probably overdue for a descaling (had her over a year)
and I'm wondering if diluted hydrochloric acid makes sense for this.
I happen to already have some and I've been unable to find citric acid
anywhere around here. I'm no chemist, but I know that stronger acids
when properly diluted aren't any more toxic than a Coke.
Toxic, no. It's actually the properties of the acid that matters. Citric
acid is a weak organic acid (as are all organic acids with the disputable
exeption of fuoracetate). The problem with HCL is that it is a too
reductive compound thus interracting with the metal like this :

Cu(s) -> Cu2+(aq) + 2e-
Cl2(g) +2e- -> 2Cl-(aq)

The chlorine ion will have the tendancy to reduce to Chlorine gas with the
result of the metal oxidising and going into solution. This is a simple
electrochemic reaction known as a redox.

In short: don't do it.

Try simple vinegar if you can't find citric acid. Maybe even use vitamin C
(ascorbic acid) in solution.
Post by jeremy ross
Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?
thanks
jeremy
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