Preservatives in Coffee??? Does Illy Cafe use any preservatives on their beans?

[mpower]

Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question? I have a
restaurant where I serve Illy cafe and a customer who has been poisoned
severly in the past has complained that when they drink my coffee they
get an allergic reaction. People who have been poisoned often become
"hypersensitive" that means if they come into contact with similar or
the same chemicals again they have a very immediate and strong reaction
to the chemical even though for most people it's only a small amount.
This started me thinking, since I serve Illy cafe - do Illy cafe use
any preservatives on their coffee beans. I have searched the internet
looking for an answer but not found any references which makes me think
that in fact there is little interest in finding out for most people.
If Illy had "no preservatives" would it not be advertised? Therefore
I'm inclined to think that it is likely that they DO in fact use
preservatives, and in that case I would like to know which ones so I
can research their affects on the body. I am sure the original Illy
cafe did not use preservatives so I am also interested in finding out
about this from that perspective - that is - why change a good thing
when it was already the best. Sure bean life maybe shortened but with
todays (and especially with Illy's) advanced manufacturing and storage
systems it seems to be pretty redundant to lace the beans with
chemicals as well.

Anyone with information on this topic???

Thanks.
M Power.

[Don Scott]

If you are that concerned about the coffee you serve in your
restaurants, why are you not serving fresh roasted coffee

[Barry Jarrett]

Post by mpower
If Illy had "no preservatives" would it not be advertised? Therefore
I'm inclined to think that it is likely that they DO in fact use
preservatives,

if a product customarily and usually contains no preservatives, then
why would you assume absence of declaration to be an inference of use?
fwiw, coffee is excluded from many food labeling laws provided no
nutritional claims are made, and advertising "no preservatives"
forfeit some exemptions.

fwiw, illy uses pressurized nitrogen gas in packaging their beans. or
maybe it's carbon dioxide.... (i forget).

[sprsso]

nitrogen in their whole beans, CO2 in their ground....al


On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:20:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett

Post by Barry Jarrett

Post by mpower
If Illy had "no preservatives" would it not be advertised? Therefore
I'm inclined to think that it is likely that they DO in fact use
preservatives,

if a product customarily and usually contains no preservatives, then
why would you assume absence of declaration to be an inference of use?
fwiw, coffee is excluded from many food labeling laws provided no
nutritional claims are made, and advertising "no preservatives"
forfeit some exemptions.
fwiw, illy uses pressurized nitrogen gas in packaging their beans. or
maybe it's carbon dioxide.... (i forget).

[Karl]

Post by Barry Jarrett
if a product customarily and usually contains no preservatives, then
why would you assume absence of declaration to be an inference of use?

Makes me think of the (more or less) fresh mushrooms at the local
supermarket which are advertised as "fat free." Guess they don't want
any inferences being made.

Karl

[Barry Jarrett]

Post by Karl
Makes me think of the (more or less) fresh mushrooms at the local
supermarket which are advertised as "fat free." Guess they don't want
any inferences being made.

mushrooms aren't exempt from nutrition labeling, whereas coffee is
exempt from nutrition labeling. any claim of nutritional nature for
coffee would forfeit that exemption and require full labeling
compliance. or, at least that's my take on the NLEA.

btw, i saw a billboard for rum, featuring "rum & diet cola" as "0
carbs, 0 sugar". i couldn't help but think of the number of folks who
would think that means "0 calories". ;)

--barry "ur dsb is on the way to the po"

[Randy G.]

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question? I have a
restaurant where I serve Illy cafe and a customer who has been poisoned
severly in the past has complained that when they drink my coffee they
get an allergic reaction. People who have been poisoned often become
"hypersensitive" that means if they come into contact with similar or
the same chemicals again they have a very immediate and strong reaction
to the chemical even though for most people it's only a small amount.
This started me thinking, since I serve Illy cafe - do Illy cafe use
any preservatives on their coffee beans. I have searched the internet
looking for an answer but not found any references which makes me think
that in fact there is little interest in finding out for most people.
If Illy had "no preservatives" would it not be advertised? Therefore
I'm inclined to think that it is likely that they DO in fact use
preservatives, and in that case I would like to know which ones so I
can research their affects on the body. I am sure the original Illy
cafe did not use preservatives so I am also interested in finding out
about this from that perspective - that is - why change a good thing
when it was already the best. Sure bean life maybe shortened but with
todays (and especially with Illy's) advanced manufacturing and storage
systems it seems to be pretty redundant to lace the beans with
chemicals as well.
Anyone with information on this topic???

Look into finding a source of higher quality coffee. Illy is not
low-quality coffee, but certainly not the freshest nor the most
affordable that could be had. Find a local roaster that can attest as
to the source and porocessing of your coffee, and get fresher coffee
in the trade as well...

As far as preservatives, if any additive was used it would have to be
listed on the can since it is a food product. Since coffee keeps
fairly well once roasted there is little need to add preservatives.*1
There is a chance that something is added to the coffee before
shipment from the growing region, but not likely once in Illy's hands.
I only say this because it is unnecessary to add and would lower
profit margins.

Could it be that your customer is reacting to something in the water
such as something leeching from the softener or filtration system, or
maybe something used to wash the coffee pots?


*1, "...keeps fairly well..." is used relatively here. I only mean to
say that it does not turn green and fuzzy like some food products can.
The discussion of "stale vs. rotten" is an entirely different matter
from what I am discussing.

Randy "in this case, freshness is relative- a distant relative" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

[Jack Denver]

As the others said, no preservatives are added to Illy unless you count the
inert gas that they use to flush the cans. For that matter, preservatives
such as those found in bread, cheese, wine, etc. (which are aimed at
delaying bacterial or fungal spoilage) are not used at all in any brand of
coffee because roasted coffee is essentially dry and not subject to
microbial spoilage but rather to staling from oxygen, against which
preservatives do not protect. The nitrogen or carbon dioxide gases used are
abundant in the atmosphere and cannot cause poisoning (unless they fill an
entire room to the exclusion of oxygen).

I have to question subjective reports like those of your customer. Such
complaints can have a high degree of psychosomatic (in other words
imaginary) basis. In other cases the feelings can have a physical basis such
as an allergic reaction but could be based on any one of dozens of
ingredients that the customer has consumed/inhaled that day, so their
ability to pinpoint it down to coffee is unlikely.

Coffee warehouse workers can develop the type of dangerous sensitivity you
describe to the dust found in sacks of green (unroasted) coffee - this is a
known occupational illness. This is not due to any preservative but to
allergens that are naturally present in the coffee bean itself. However,
you are talking about people who spend all day in dusty environments
inhaling the stuff and the dust does not survive the coffee roasting
process. This page refers to a study that was done at "a modern coffee
manufacturing plant of Trieste" which is most likely the Illy factory:

http://allallergy.net/fapaidfind.cfm?cdeoc=261

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question? I have a
restaurant where I serve Illy cafe and a customer who has been poisoned
severly in the past has complained that when they drink my coffee they
get an allergic reaction. People who have been poisoned often become
"hypersensitive" that means if they come into contact with similar or
the same chemicals again they have a very immediate and strong reaction
to the chemical even though for most people it's only a small amount.
This started me thinking, since I serve Illy cafe - do Illy cafe use
any preservatives on their coffee beans. I have searched the internet
looking for an answer but not found any references which makes me think
that in fact there is little interest in finding out for most people.
If Illy had "no preservatives" would it not be advertised? Therefore
I'm inclined to think that it is likely that they DO in fact use
preservatives, and in that case I would like to know which ones so I
can research their affects on the body. I am sure the original Illy
cafe did not use preservatives so I am also interested in finding out
about this from that perspective - that is - why change a good thing
when it was already the best. Sure bean life maybe shortened but with
todays (and especially with Illy's) advanced manufacturing and storage
systems it seems to be pretty redundant to lace the beans with
chemicals as well.
Anyone with information on this topic???
Thanks.
M Power.

[jim schulman]

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question? I have a
restaurant where I serve Illy cafe and a customer who has been poisoned
severly in the past has complained that when they drink my coffee they
get an allergic reaction

Just as a point of reference, if one is frequently "poisoned," one can
develop some immunity. Allergic reactions can get worse with repeated
exposures. With poisons, its the substance that's dangerous; with
allergens, it's the body's own immune response that's dangerous.

If your customer is allergic to Illy; he will very likely be allergic
to all arabica coffees. Some coffees may taste better or worse, but
chemically, they are all close enough to identical as makes no
difference. Cheap robusta coffees, such as used in supermarket brands
or instant, contain far fewer aromatic compounds. So it is conceivable
that someone drinking these at home could be allergic to good coffee.
I once heard something similar about someone who had only eaten fake
monkfish crab, being very surprised by an allergic reeaction to real
crab.

[I]

monkfish crab???

Post by jim schulman

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question? I have a
restaurant where I serve Illy cafe and a customer who has been poisoned
severly in the past has complained that when they drink my coffee they
get an allergic reaction

Just as a point of reference, if one is frequently "poisoned," one can
develop some immunity. Allergic reactions can get worse with repeated
exposures. With poisons, its the substance that's dangerous; with
allergens, it's the body's own immune response that's dangerous.
If your customer is allergic to Illy; he will very likely be allergic
to all arabica coffees. Some coffees may taste better or worse, but
chemically, they are all close enough to identical as makes no
difference. Cheap robusta coffees, such as used in supermarket brands
or instant, contain far fewer aromatic compounds. So it is conceivable
that someone drinking these at home could be allergic to good coffee.
I once heard something similar about someone who had only eaten fake
monkfish crab, being very surprised by an allergic reeaction to real
crab.
--
jim schulman

[jim schulman]

Post by I
monkfish crab???

Shredded monkfish is used for fake crab and lobster dishes

[m***@espressopartsource.com]

There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.

As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee.

Though I am not a huge fan of Illy, there isn't a lab on the planet
that has done more research on espresso and what happens to the coffee
over time. While the coffee that lands here may be different from what
lands in Europe (guiness never tastes as good outside Ireland), any
idea that it is inferior or stale is nuts.

If it's been in the bean hopper for two weeks, it's another issue. A
six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
coffee you will find stateside. A shot glass full of crema that drops
a quarter inch after 90 seconds is not the droid you are looking for.
The problem is that most of the best American Roasters are small and
don't have the resources to understand and acquire the equipment that
would make their product stable over time. They have the roasting
thing down but there is ZERO energy devoted to how to handle the coffee
after it's degassed. Hence the perception that it must not matter.

It matters a lot. And disqualifying 'old' coffee because 'fresh'
simply makes sense doesn't not provide a basis in fact.

Rant over.

Michael

[Marshall]

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.
As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee. <snip>

My home experience with Illy is limited to the cans they pack with
their nifty cups. It's fine for the first day or so after opening, but
rapidy after that, until it is undrinkable by 48 to 72 hours. I have
discussed this with others who reported the same problem.

I guessed this was acceptable in a commercial setting, where even the
very large cans that they up-end onto the grinders would be used up by
then. But, I have not recommended this coffee for use at home.

Marshall

[Marshall]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:05 GMT, Marshall

Post by Marshall

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.
As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee. <snip>

My home experience with Illy is limited to the cans they pack with
their nifty cups. It's fine for the first day or so after opening, but
rapidy after that, until it is undrinkable by 48 to 72 hours. I have
discussed this with others who reported the same problem.
I guessed this was acceptable in a commercial setting, where even the
very large cans that they up-end onto the grinders would be used up by
then. But, I have not recommended this coffee for use at home.
Marshall

I meant "...it stales rapidly after that...."

Marshall

[Randy G.]

As Marshall stated, Illy is "fresh" when the can is opened (and it
seems that cans is the way most Americans see it, in my experience
anyway). And at that time, while not exciting, is smooth and
drinkable. One day, or at the most, two days later it is virtually
undrinkable, staling far more rapidly than a quality coffee,
fresh-roasted, and attained locally. I have personally expeienced that
and others have reported much the same here on alt.coffee.

For home use, if the can is opened and used within 24 hours, I think
it is OK, although not terribly economical. In cans for commercial
use...? The cost of a cup of coffee would be somewhat prohibitive, no?
If they sell large "institutional" sized cans, unless the shop is
serving a lot of coffee, the end of a can could very well make for
some pretty poor coffee.

I suppose that is what we... err, some of us, Uhh.. I was referring
to.

Randy "I should only refer to myself" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.
As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee.
Though I am not a huge fan of Illy, there isn't a lab on the planet
that has done more research on espresso and what happens to the coffee
over time. While the coffee that lands here may be different from what
lands in Europe (guiness never tastes as good outside Ireland), any
idea that it is inferior or stale is nuts.
If it's been in the bean hopper for two weeks, it's another issue. A
six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
coffee you will find stateside. A shot glass full of crema that drops
a quarter inch after 90 seconds is not the droid you are looking for.
The problem is that most of the best American Roasters are small and
don't have the resources to understand and acquire the equipment that
would make their product stable over time. They have the roasting
thing down but there is ZERO energy devoted to how to handle the coffee
after it's degassed. Hence the perception that it must not matter.
It matters a lot. And disqualifying 'old' coffee because 'fresh'
simply makes sense doesn't not provide a basis in fact.
Rant over.
Michael

[jim schulman]

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
A
six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
coffee you will find stateside. A shot glass full of crema that drops
a quarter inch after 90 seconds is not the droid you are looking for.
The problem is that most of the best American Roasters are small and
don't have the resources to understand and acquire the equipment that
would make their product stable over time.

With all due respect, especially to Angleo's taste preferences, this
is mostly nonsense.

No matter what Italian blends go for in the US, they are mostly made
from very ordinary non-specialty coffees and sold at a relatively low
prices in Italy. The resulting shots, almost always well done, are
pleasant to drink and quite certainly the best way to do cheap coffee
on the planet. But we are talking the equivalent of budget priced
table wines done by very expert vintners.

US espresso blends are quite different. They are almost always made
from beans far superior to anything used in Italy. But mostly, the
people doing the roasting and blending, then doing the brewing, are
clueless. The result is a bit like Chateau Margaux grapes vinified by
an amatuer beer brewer, then served as a hot toddy. In such cases, the
Italian version is preferable.

But there are now many roasters who do have a clue, who can sell their
coffees direct at far higher prices, and therefore use much better
coffees, and cafes where people know how to pull shots.The result is
espresso that is far from table wine standards, that has real interest
in the aroma and taste. The polish level is still not up to Italian
standards, but the espresso is far more interesting to the palate
nevertheless. In essence, the top cafes here are serving a market that
is willing to pay a lot more for their coffee than anyone in Italy.

This is comparing Italian blends in Italy to the top US ones here.
Given the low level of the beans used; the preservation technology is
fairly irrelevent.-- even perfectly preserved, no widely distributed
Itlian blend would compare to the blends we talk up here.

And the micro-roasters in Salerno, who supply a few local cafes; they
don't know much, or need to know much, about preservation technologies
either. The same is true of any other micro-roasters left in Italy.
The preservation technologies you talk about are the province of
roasters trying to get national and international distribution. They
have obviously noticed the prices people are willing to pay for
espresso in some other countries and are trying to compete with their
offerings.

I have nothing but respect for the Illy company, and the efforts they
are making. But that respect is based not on the concept that they can
magically create great coffee at Maxwell house quantities; rather that
they've worked hard to produce mass market coffee, which after all is
how most coffee will be consumed, that is as good as such a commodity
can get. They are more the Honda of coffee than the Ferrari.

[D. Ross]

| If it's been in the bean hopper for two weeks, it's another issue. A
| six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
| coffee you will find stateside.

That's the stuff that's intentionally aged after roasting?

I think it is not valid inference to say that because an Illy bar in Milan
can get good results from their packaged coffee, therefore the packaging is
working. The good bars in Italian cities get pretty regular deliveries -
one Danesi bar we used to frequent in Rome (near my wife's grandfather's
flat on the Gianicolo) got new beans a couple of times a week at least. I
don't think that the Italian roaster beans we see in the US - even in
commercial accounts - are anywhere near as fresh as the same brands as used
over there.

I'm very fond of the Italian coffee I get in Italy, even from the biggest
roasters; Lavazza, Danesi, Segafredo. Bei & Nannini et al all have
interesting and distinctive flavor notes which I miss with US blends. The
same coffees, once they make it over here (in their factory packaging) do
have the same flavor notes, but very distant. As for Illy, it always tastes
a bit dead to me, even in Italy; kind of the difference between the ale I
used to drink when I lived in Yorkshire, and the same ale when served in a
London pub. The nearest ar to the U. di Pisa math department is an Illy
bar, otherwise I would never drink it anymore.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net

[Jack Denver]

I think the consensus is running against you POV. If you consume really
fresh coffee (as in roasted this week) from a local roaster you don't have
to worry about "stabilizing" the product - it's gone before it can ever
become stale. As far as equipment and resources, valve bags and nitrogen
flushes are not rocket science - the equipment is cheap and available to
any roaster and is(especially if combined with freezing) adequate for a few
weeks of preservation. I see no reason why you should have to drink 6 month
old or year old coffee, ever. If Illy or Passal want to have the stuff sit
around on container ships and in warehouses for years and years that's their
problem and it doesn't impress me how many millions they spend on
pressurized cans or whatever. Technology that makes coffee lasts forever
holds no interest for me. I don't want 6 month old bread or chicken or milk
or coffee either - why should I when I can have it truly fresh instead. As
others pointed out, somehow once coffee this old is opened it deteriorates
very rapidly for some reason. As you say, the stuff we get over here is a
little faded to begin with, fancy cans or not.

The big Italian roasters are very skilled blenders and roasters but they
don't start out with green that is all that great - they are shooting for a
price point and consistency and they need to buy in great volume and don't
have the freedom a small roaster has to buy a bag or two of this or that
estate coffee. Overall, the Italian coffee scene is dominated by a handful
of large roasters. They are not as evil as P&G and Sara Lee, etc. are here,
but they are big corporations and not artisans. Italian consumers want their
favorite brand of coffee to taste a certain way, consistently, but overall
their ambitions are moderate - they won't tolerate something awful, but they
are not looking for great subtlety either - they put the sugar in, look to
see if it floats on the crema, and down the hatch it goes. So what you get
is a very respectably crafted commercial product but I think at this point
the best American artisan roasters (for that matter the best Italian artisan
roasters) beat them every day of the week, even putting freshness aside. Are
there American roasters who are clueless? Sure there are, but there are
great ones too. If you are looking for the best of the best it's not coming
in a can from Italy anymore.

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.
As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee.
Though I am not a huge fan of Illy, there isn't a lab on the planet
that has done more research on espresso and what happens to the coffee
over time. While the coffee that lands here may be different from what
lands in Europe (guiness never tastes as good outside Ireland), any
idea that it is inferior or stale is nuts.
If it's been in the bean hopper for two weeks, it's another issue. A
six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
coffee you will find stateside. A shot glass full of crema that drops
a quarter inch after 90 seconds is not the droid you are looking for.
The problem is that most of the best American Roasters are small and
don't have the resources to understand and acquire the equipment that
would make their product stable over time. They have the roasting
thing down but there is ZERO energy devoted to how to handle the coffee
after it's degassed. Hence the perception that it must not matter.
It matters a lot. And disqualifying 'old' coffee because 'fresh'
simply makes sense doesn't not provide a basis in fact.
Rant over.
Michael

[Andy Schecter]

Post by Jack Denver
If Illy or Passal want to have the stuff sit
around on container ships and in warehouses for years and years that's their
problem and it doesn't impress me how many millions they spend on
pressurized cans or whatever. Technology that makes coffee lasts forever
holds no interest for me.

Along with almost everyone here besides Michael and Angelo, I'm pretty much in
agreement with your point of view. But one contrary wrinkle that nobody
appears to have mentioned is Illy's claim about the theory behind his
pressurized cans:

"Pressurization has an 'ageing' effect with quality improvement after 10-15
days. Indeed, an espresso cup prepared from an aged product has an improved
body and aroma. The ageing may be explained by a binding of aroma constituents
to the oil trapped within the cell structure. During degassing, pressure rises
in the container and the reduced pressure gradient between the packaging
environment and the bean structure produces two combined effects underlying
the ageing mechanism: first, a decrease in degassing rate reduces oil
migration so that more of it remains in the beans; second the pressure in the
package becomes higher than the partial pressure of the most volatile
compounds present in the cells, allowing for a larger quantity to be dissolved
in the lipid phase or to bind to melanoidins."

WHEW, I typed that in manually. There's a couple more paragraphs, but if you
want to read them, too, I suggest you buy the book.

From a cynic's point of view, this stuff is incredibly self-serving: Illy's
trying to sell more coffee. But it is not implausible that certain storage
conditions _could_ have beneficial effects on the coffee.

I've had a nitrogen tank, stainless steel pressure vessels, relief valves,
etc, sitting in my basement for a year and a half. But alas, along with a half
dozen other experiments, I have yet to get around to playing with this.

[Marshall]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:45:00 GMT, Andy Schecter

Post by Andy Schecter
I've had a nitrogen tank, stainless steel pressure vessels, relief valves,
etc, sitting in my basement for a year and a half. But alas, along with a half
dozen other experiments, I have yet to get around to playing with this.

Your basement sounds scary. Who brings you the brains?

Marshall "probably stored behind the Tesla coils"

[Jack Denver]

Note that he is talking about 10 or 15 days. I could buy into that -most of
us more or less agree that a couple of days of rest is good for some blends.
Take that same blend and put it under pressure with nitrogen for 10 or 15
days and it may be even better for the reasons the good Dr. gives (although
he doesn't talk at all about freezing- I'd bet money that freezing is better
still because it arrest oil migration even more). But six months or a year
later?




.

Post by Andy Schecter

If Illy or Passal want to have the stuff sit around on container ships
and in warehouses for years and years that's their problem and it
doesn't impress me how many millions they spend on pressurized cans or
whatever. Technology that makes coffee lasts forever holds no interest
for me.

Along with almost everyone here besides Michael and Angelo, I'm pretty
much in agreement with your point of view. But one contrary wrinkle that
nobody appears to have mentioned is Illy's claim about the theory behind
"Pressurization has an 'ageing' effect with quality improvement after
10-15 days. Indeed, an espresso cup prepared from an aged product has an
improved body and aroma. The ageing may be explained by a binding of aroma
constituents to the oil trapped within the cell structure. During
degassing, pressure rises in the container and the reduced pressure
gradient between the packaging environment and the bean structure produces
two combined effects underlying the ageing mechanism: first, a decrease in
degassing rate reduces oil migration so that more of it remains in the
beans; second the pressure in the package becomes higher than the partial
pressure of the most volatile compounds present in the cells, allowing for
a larger quantity to be dissolved in the lipid phase or to bind to
melanoidins."
WHEW, I typed that in manually. There's a couple more paragraphs, but if
you want to read them, too, I suggest you buy the book.
Illy's trying to sell more coffee. But it is not implausible that certain
storage conditions _could_ have beneficial effects on the coffee.
I've had a nitrogen tank, stainless steel pressure vessels, relief valves,
etc, sitting in my basement for a year and a half. But alas, along with a
half dozen other experiments, I have yet to get around to playing with
this.
--
-Andy S.
picture page: http://tinyurl.com/eh0x

[sprsso]

I think this might be some of the best info you've posted in awhile.
Thre are points that bear discussion in this and responses (I didn't
get to see some, because I've been out of town selling 4 day old
coffee). I have a lot to say on this subject that has come
hard-learned over the last 7 years or so, but I don't have time to
address it now. Hopefully the topic won't run dry before the holidays
end. Good post, Jack. Hope it engenders further quality discussion
before I get back. The new paradigms (god, I hate that word) shaping
specialty coffee commercially sold are going to have to be talked
about extensively, and some feelings will get hurt at the commercial
level. Probably should wait until after our collective holidays.
By the way, the most thoughful gift I've gotten so far has been a
container of Folger's (from a close friend who drinks it and think
I've gone over the edge). One of the gifts I gave him read "From
Pittsburg, Pa. Made in China".
I told him the Folgers was made in the USA by way of VietNam.
I told him I would never open this present, but it would sit on
shelves with the likes of illy,caffee Kimbo, Supreme Bean Kopi
Luwak,Dallis coffee, Yauco Selecto, Cafe Choc Andes, Stone cup
roasting co. Caffe Rialto, Malabar Gold, Caffe Del Doge, Harrod's Alan
Frew's Espresso Meridionlae,Caldo Caldo,LaVazza, Mickey's Blend from
Disney, Batdorf and Bronson, Intelligentsia, Vittoria, Tres Rios
valdivia, Mallobert'sNorth Queenland Gold, Byron Bay, Coffee AM.com,
Palm Beach Coffee roasters, Joffrey's, Barneys, Vittorio La'Originale,
Yaucono, Nescafe and cafe monte sion, Caffe Florian, Indian River
coffee, island coffee, Carmo coffee and others to low on the scale to
mention. Perhaps some of the quality of the others will rub off.
I'll never know.
Pictures to follow....alt.dot coffee shirt in front of our palm
christmas tree holding Folgers. Might have to pixilate my face for
ananimity....al

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:25:22 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
I think the consensus is running against you POV. If you consume really
fresh coffee (as in roasted this week) from a local roaster you don't have
to worry about "stabilizing" the product - it's gone before it can ever
become stale. As far as equipment and resources, valve bags and nitrogen
flushes are not rocket science - the equipment is cheap and available to
any roaster and is(especially if combined with freezing) adequate for a few
weeks of preservation. I see no reason why you should have to drink 6 month
old or year old coffee, ever. If Illy or Passal want to have the stuff sit
around on container ships and in warehouses for years and years that's their
problem and it doesn't impress me how many millions they spend on
pressurized cans or whatever. Technology that makes coffee lasts forever
holds no interest for me. I don't want 6 month old bread or chicken or milk
or coffee either - why should I when I can have it truly fresh instead. As
others pointed out, somehow once coffee this old is opened it deteriorates
very rapidly for some reason. As you say, the stuff we get over here is a
little faded to begin with, fancy cans or not.
The big Italian roasters are very skilled blenders and roasters but they
don't start out with green that is all that great - they are shooting for a
price point and consistency and they need to buy in great volume and don't
have the freedom a small roaster has to buy a bag or two of this or that
estate coffee. Overall, the Italian coffee scene is dominated by a handful
of large roasters. They are not as evil as P&G and Sara Lee, etc. are here,
but they are big corporations and not artisans. Italian consumers want their
favorite brand of coffee to taste a certain way, consistently, but overall
their ambitions are moderate - they won't tolerate something awful, but they
are not looking for great subtlety either - they put the sugar in, look to
see if it floats on the crema, and down the hatch it goes. So what you get
is a very respectably crafted commercial product but I think at this point
the best American artisan roasters (for that matter the best Italian artisan
roasters) beat them every day of the week, even putting freshness aside. Are
there American roasters who are clueless? Sure there are, but there are
great ones too. If you are looking for the best of the best it's not coming
in a can from Italy anymore.

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
There are no preservatives in Illy, just the nitrogen. Air is mostly
nitrogen.
As far as the fresh vs. canned Illy is concerned--switching for the
sake of freshness is misguided. The notion that 'fresh' American
roasted espresso is inherently better than old stale coffee from Italy
reflects an American bias that doesn't truly grasp what role process
packaging plays in handling coffee.
Though I am not a huge fan of Illy, there isn't a lab on the planet
that has done more research on espresso and what happens to the coffee
over time. While the coffee that lands here may be different from what
lands in Europe (guiness never tastes as good outside Ireland), any
idea that it is inferior or stale is nuts.
If it's been in the bean hopper for two weeks, it's another issue. A
six month old bag of Passal Acqua is still better than most any 'fresh'
coffee you will find stateside. A shot glass full of crema that drops
a quarter inch after 90 seconds is not the droid you are looking for.
The problem is that most of the best American Roasters are small and
don't have the resources to understand and acquire the equipment that
would make their product stable over time. They have the roasting
thing down but there is ZERO energy devoted to how to handle the coffee
after it's degassed. Hence the perception that it must not matter.
It matters a lot. And disqualifying 'old' coffee because 'fresh'
simply makes sense doesn't not provide a basis in fact.
Rant over.
Michael

[Jack Denver]

AFAIK, monkfish is not what is used in artificial crab (surimi). Usually it
is pollack, hake or some other very inexpensive fish. Monkfish is rather
pricey and desirable nowadays on its own, although in the old days it was
called "allmouth" and considered worthless (the only part that is eaten in
the US is the tail section, which is tiny in relation to the rest of the
fish). You may have been confused because monkfish itself in pure fillet
form is often called "poor man's lobster" because it has a somewhat
lobsterlike firm texture.

Since artificial "crab" contains little if any crab, it's not surprising
that people who are allergic to crab might be able to eat it without
reacting but not be able to eat the real thing. OTOH, if one is truly badly
allergic to seafood, even the tiny amount used as flavoring in the
artificial stuff might be enough to trigger a reaction. Even getting a
whiff of seafood from a passing serving tray in a Chinese restaurant or
from use of pots in which seafood was previously cooked has put people into
shock.

What is often not understood about food allergies is that certain foods,
usually ones with high protein content, are allergy provoking (seafood,
peanuts, wheat, milk) for a fair percentage of the population, while other
foods (tea, coffee, sugar, nitrates) almost never cause allergic reactions
when consumed. So if someone complains that they are "allergic to sugar"
chances are they are not, but if they say they are "allergic to shrimp" you
can usually believe them.

Post by jim schulman

Post by I
monkfish crab???

Shredded monkfish is used for fake crab and lobster dishes
--
jim schulman

[m***@espressopartsource.com]

Passal Acqua goes from the roaster into nitrogen flushed silos to
de-gas, away from any oxygen.

The Illy I refer to is the commercial variety in the pressurized cans;
and they puroposefully DO NOT ship before thirty days.

Whenever I bring this up, I get railed upon.

Every nation has cultural traditions at which they excel. It is the
American cultural imperative that we can do anything; we work harder
and are driven more than just about any other society--I said just
about. As much as I would like to be able to explain everything, break
everything down to a complex formula--I can't. I also don't think that
I should. I don't know why Italian proscuito tastes the way it does;
but I know that no one in North America can duplicate it. I don't know
why San Francisco sour dough tastes a little different than bread from
the south bay--it just does. We can blame it on the fog, but it
shouldn't be that easy.

Italians don't use cheap coffee, they don't work espresso as a
commodity--not that I have experienced, and the bars don't pay less for
their espresso than we do here. While they spend little time roasting
varietals, as we do here, they roast and blend to develop the same
profile from their coffee every year, regardless of the crop. Which do
tou suppose presents the greater challenge?

As far as whether or not the packaging positively affects the flavor, I
can only tell you what I have experienced.

When I had a coffee bar in Portland, a gave a sample of the Danesi Gold
to the roaster we had recently switched from. He wanted a chance to
match the blend and get back into the bar. He reported back that it
was a stale blend of perhaps 50% robusta from the Phillipines blended
with some beans from Latin America and that it was roasted perhaps two
months prior. I knew the coffee; I knew the roaster in Italy and had a
very good idea of what coffee were in there and I was offended by his
presumption.

There is a bias against the Italian roasters here. We don't have to
like everything they roast, but we need to respect the intergrity
behind what they do.

Michael

[Jack Denver]

Why does the Passal need to degas before it is packed at all - the usual
modern method is to put it in valve bags ASAP? It would be even better to
freeze it and arrest the degassing entirely, but roasters have not up until
now wanted to turn coffee into a frozen food because of the cost. They
should though.

The thirty day rest for Illy seems a little strange for the US market at
least. I can understand (given their philosophy about the beans benefitting
from rest under pressure) why they would do this in the Italy market where
something roasted in Trieste on one day can be in a cafe in Rome the next,
but maybe the US supply should be allowed to do its resting on the container
ship, etc. From what I can tell, the Illy we get here has plenty of time to
rest in the supply chain.

I understand the great effort that Italian roaster put into having a
consistent signature for each of their blends and you are right that it is
no mean feat to produce the same flavor profile year after year, crop after
crop, when certain origins come in and out of availability, etc. I
understand why they do it. To Italians, their favorite blend is like Coca
Cola is to Americans - you mess with the formula for Coke at your own peril.
But, like the trick of preserving coffee forever, I'm just not interested in
turning an agricultural crop with its natural variations which are its
greatest feature into a uniform industrial product. To me, that's boring.
I'd rather take my chances. Do these chances always pay off? No way, but
along with the bad you sometimes get soaring greatness.

There is no point in lying about the Italian blends to make them sound worse
than they really are. Most of the roasters have an all arabica blend that is
very respectable, and they even manage to use robusta without producing
coffee that tastes like burned rubber, but I still think (in fact I'm pretty
sure) that the best American craft roasters beat them every day of the week.

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
Passal Acqua goes from the roaster into nitrogen flushed silos to
de-gas, away from any oxygen.
The Illy I refer to is the commercial variety in the pressurized cans;
and they puroposefully DO NOT ship before thirty days.
Whenever I bring this up, I get railed upon.
Every nation has cultural traditions at which they excel. It is the
American cultural imperative that we can do anything; we work harder
and are driven more than just about any other society--I said just
about. As much as I would like to be able to explain everything, break
everything down to a complex formula--I can't. I also don't think that
I should. I don't know why Italian proscuito tastes the way it does;
but I know that no one in North America can duplicate it. I don't know
why San Francisco sour dough tastes a little different than bread from
the south bay--it just does. We can blame it on the fog, but it
shouldn't be that easy.
Italians don't use cheap coffee, they don't work espresso as a
commodity--not that I have experienced, and the bars don't pay less for
their espresso than we do here. While they spend little time roasting
varietals, as we do here, they roast and blend to develop the same
profile from their coffee every year, regardless of the crop. Which do
tou suppose presents the greater challenge?
As far as whether or not the packaging positively affects the flavor, I
can only tell you what I have experienced.
When I had a coffee bar in Portland, a gave a sample of the Danesi Gold
to the roaster we had recently switched from. He wanted a chance to
match the blend and get back into the bar. He reported back that it
was a stale blend of perhaps 50% robusta from the Phillipines blended
with some beans from Latin America and that it was roasted perhaps two
months prior. I knew the coffee; I knew the roaster in Italy and had a
very good idea of what coffee were in there and I was offended by his
presumption.
There is a bias against the Italian roasters here. We don't have to
like everything they roast, but we need to respect the intergrity
behind what they do.
Michael

[m***@espressopartsource.com]

Simply popping it in a valve bag doesn't allow degassing in an oxygen
free environment and simply sucking out the air isn't good enough.
The process insures the result they want. Even in the bag, it is
flushed with nitrogen and then bricked. Complete degassing under
nitrogen allows the coffee to stay in brick form without degrading.
THe thickness of the bag also prevent oxygen from entering the bag.

Done right, it is about like freezing--something that most roaster in
the US also frown upon.

Large producers in Italy are not the same as in the US. Comparing a
large quaality roaster in Italy to Coca Cola is a bit of a stretch.

As far as putting a top notch American roaster against a similar good
Italian brand; if it's never been done, assertions on either side of
the debate are meaningless.

[Jack Denver]

Sorry to be thickheaded, but I'm still not following. If you take fresh
coffee, pull a vacuum , flush the valve bag with nitrogen and then seal it,
doesn't degassing take place in a oxygen free environment? I thought the
whole point of the valve bag was that you could pack the coffee fresh and
no longer had to wait unti the coffee was fully degassed (ready partly
stale) before you could pack it. Brick packs I thought are considered a step
behind for this reason. You can of course use the same thick bag but put a
valve on it.

I'm not sure I agree that either of the above is the equivalent of freezing.
There was a time when freezing was not considered necessary for a lot of
foods (what's wrong with canned peas?, Mr. Delmonte surely said) but I think
the coffee industry will go in that direction eventually if consumers ever
catch on that they are being sold an inferior product.

My comparison to Coke was meant as a form of compliment - as you say, it
takes considerable skill (a lot more than I have) to be able to reproduce
the same flavor profile consistently from differing raw materials. It was
also with reference to Italian consumers, who do, in my observation,
consider coffee to be about like Coke - something that is served to you as a
finished product. We've had remarkably few Italian alt.coffee participants
over the years. Part of that is the language barrier - the Italians are
behind Northern Europeans in their level of English instruction. But the
other part of it is that Italian consumers think that coffee should be left
to professionals - barmen, roasters, etc. and so they lack a lot of the
curiosity that we have here about the nuts and bolts of coffee roasting and
preparation. To extent they debate coffee at all, it is usually on the level
that Bar X is the place to go, and then the next person says, no, they are
crooks and cheaters who must add something to foam up their crema and Bar Y
is much better, or someone will swear allegiance to a certain local roaster
and tell you which of their blends they prefer (and they can tell you that
very precisely, just like dedicated soda drinkers will tell you the ways
that Coke tastes better than Pepsi or vice versa). But all this talk of PID
and thermography, etc. must seem very odd to them. Yes Dr. Illy does this
kind of stuff in his lab and there are engineers on staff at Cimbali, etc. ,
but they do it so you don't have to and the idea of someone doing this at
home is very strange in their eyes, as strange as we would think if people
were trying to brew their own Coca Cola in their kitchen.

Post by m***@espressopartsource.com
Simply popping it in a valve bag doesn't allow degassing in an oxygen
free environment and simply sucking out the air isn't good enough.
The process insures the result they want. Even in the bag, it is
flushed with nitrogen and then bricked. Complete degassing under
nitrogen allows the coffee to stay in brick form without degrading.
THe thickness of the bag also prevent oxygen from entering the bag.
Done right, it is about like freezing--something that most roaster in
the US also frown upon.
Large producers in Italy are not the same as in the US. Comparing a
large quaality roaster in Italy to Coca Cola is a bit of a stretch.
As far as putting a top notch American roaster against a similar good
Italian brand; if it's never been done, assertions on either side of
the debate are meaningless.

[Ken Fox]

Post by Jack Denver
Sorry to be thickheaded, but I'm still not following. If you take fresh
coffee, pull a vacuum , flush the valve bag with nitrogen and then seal
it, doesn't degassing take place in a oxygen free environment? I thought
the whole point of the valve bag was that you could pack the coffee fresh
and no longer had to wait unti the coffee was fully degassed (ready partly
stale) before you could pack it. Brick packs I thought are considered a
step behind for this reason. You can of course use the same thick bag but
put a valve on it.
I'm not sure I agree that either of the above is the equivalent of
freezing. There was a time when freezing was not considered necessary for
a lot of foods (what's wrong with canned peas?, Mr. Delmonte surely said)
but I think the coffee industry will go in that direction eventually if
consumers ever catch on that they are being sold an inferior product.

It's hard to be definitive but I don't see the Illy preservation process as
being similar to or having the same effect as freezing. For one thing, I
think that if freezing is done right (put in a very cold freezer immediately
after roasting with no time allowed for significant outgassing), and you
don't freeze for too long, the defrosted beans will have a shelf life not
too much shorter than fresh -- I'd subtract a day or two at most. My
experience with Illy, at least a couple of cases of the whole bean stuff in
the consumer sized cans, is that it was palatable for at most 3 days,
certainly not a week which is what I'd expect as a worst case scenario from
my frozen beans. Now I do understand that Illy uses a different gas for
preservation of the large multi kg bar sized cans than they use for the
small home cans, so this observation might not extend to what is used in an
espresso bar.

I drank Italian coffee for years before I discovered a.c. and home roasting
and artisinal roasters. I've had occasion a few times to go back to Italian
coffee, generally Illy, since then, and each time I've had the same
reaction; it is a bit on the uninteresting side after having had the more
vibrant tasting coffee that comes out of our better small roasters in N.
America. Of course, we are talking taste here and there is no arguing over
such matters as it is 100% subjective.

To me, the Italians deserve credit for a number of things; for one, they
invented espresso, and for two, they continue to make most of the equipment
used to make it. For another, they have managed to train their barmen and
one can walk into the great majority of bars in Italy and expect to get a
good espresso shot made by someone who knows what he is doing, something
that cannot be said about almost any other country. The coffee itself,
however, is kinda boring to my taste.

To Michael; I seem to recall a conversation at the SCAA involving Angelo and
Luigi the famous Italian barista educator, (maybe you also but I think you
were at your booth), where Luigi (in Angelo's translation) said that the
Italians couldn't do well in the barista championships because . . . . .
their coffee wasn't as tasty as that being used by the other contestents.
Perhaps you can ask Angelo and see if he recalls the conversation the way
that I do??? This is even more interesting given that Luigi was at the
convention sponsored by an Italian coffee company, if my impression was
correct.

Happy holidays to all!

ken

[Barry Jarrett]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:51:54 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
the coffee industry will go in that direction eventually if consumers ever
catch on that they are being sold an inferior product.

pods would be the idea candidate, imho. take just roasted coffee,
grind it, pod it, pack in individual packs, and freeze those puppies.
keep 'em frozen until ready for use, and then zap 'em with high-first
brew profile.

no muss; no fuss; fresh coffee every time.

[Mathew Hargreaves]

So, is anyone here who is home roasting tried their coffees in a pod
machine that heats the water properly?

CHEERS...Matt

Post by Barry Jarrett
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:51:54 -0500, "Jack Denver"

Post by Jack Denver
the coffee industry will go in that direction eventually if consumers ever
catch on that they are being sold an inferior product.

pods would be the idea candidate, imho. take just roasted coffee,
grind it, pod it, pack in individual packs, and freeze those puppies.
keep 'em frozen until ready for use, and then zap 'em with high-first
brew profile.
no muss; no fuss; fresh coffee every time.

[Johnny]

Post by Mathew Hargreaves
So, is anyone here who is home roasting tried their coffees in a pod
machine that heats the water properly?
CHEERS...Matt

Here is a guide: http://www.singleservecoffee.com/archives/001023.php

[D. Ross]

| the Italians are
| behind Northern Europeans in their level of English instruction.

This has been changing rapidly in the last few years, as a result of a
national drive.

| other part of it is that Italian consumers think that coffee should be left
| to professionals - barmen, roasters, etc. and so they lack a lot of the
| curiosity that we have here about the nuts and bolts of coffee roasting and
| preparation.

Not sure I agree here; I've been in discussions with Italian colleagues who
seem to know quite a bit about the technical details of roasting, very much
more than would a similar selection of my US colleagues (including the
several in my deparment who home-roast).

Finally, I think that it is unfair to judge all Italian roasters on the
basis of Illy, Lavazza, Segafredo, etc. - there are many small Italian
roasters there that in a more affected society might be called 'artisanal',
and which produce wonderful blends. We used to go to a tiny roaster in
Trastevere whose blend was staggeringly good. Unfortunately, the better
ones tend to get big, and lose their edge - as they do here (remember
Torrefazione Italia when Umberto Bizarri was still the roastmaster?)

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net

[Jack Denver]

Post by D. Ross
| the Italians are
| behind Northern Europeans in their level of English instruction.
This has been changing rapidly in the last few years, as a result of a
national drive.

The situation has been getting better but the national drive itself was as a
result of the realization that they were way behind. At this point English
is the modern lingua franca that is useful not just for speaking with
Americans and Brits and Commonwealth visitors but also is the common 2nd
language for many other countries. Some people blame the lack of English
skills on the fact that the Italian movie market was always large enough to
justify dubbing the movies into Italian while the smaller Nordic countries
got all their movies in English with subtitles.

snip

Post by D. Ross
| >
Finally, I think that it is unfair to judge all Italian roasters on the
basis of Illy, Lavazza, Segafredo, etc. - there are many small Italian
roasters there that in a more affected society might be called
'artisanal',
and which produce wonderful blends. We used to go to a tiny roaster in
Trastevere whose blend was staggeringly good. Unfortunately, the better
ones tend to get big, and lose their edge - as they do here (remember
Torrefazione Italia when Umberto Bizarri was still the roastmaster?)

There's no doubt that there are some fine small roasters left in Italy (and
I think the Italians themselves use the term artisanal, probably more than
we do). I gather that at one time ( before my time) there were many
thousands of them and that even home roasting was common. At some
intermediate stage, there was a situation akin to the beer market in the US
50 years ago, where you had consolidation beyond the artisanal stage but
each city or region had its own local roaster that dominated its area,
producing a product that catered to the exact regional taste. Nowadays in
terms of market share the big roasters nowadays have most of it (for the
same reasons as the US - national advertising power, economies of scale,
etc.) and of course the products of those little shop roasters and even
many of the regional roasters never make it across the pond. The fact that
the local and home roasting traditions died out much more recently than the
US may account for your colleagues ability to speak knowledgeably even if
they don't home roast any more. Also because coffee is more of a national
obsession - it's hard to walk a block in a big city without passing a place
that sells espresso - bar, bakery, grocery store, etc.. This I think
accounts for the Italians general lack of interest in home espresso.

[Randy G.]

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question?

I mentioned that the preservatives were not necessary and they would
add cost to the product.. I thought about that and it remnded me of a
news story a couple of decades ago:

Soemone started a rumor that MacDonalds was using ground earthworms in
their hamburgers. It made the rounds widely enough to prompt a
response by macDonalds- The stated tha tthe price of earthworms per
pound was quite a bit more than beef. The story immediately
disappeared.

Customer: "This Coffee tastes like DIRT!"
PBTC: "I know. It was (in the) ground (with earthworms) this morning."


Randy "it was funny when I typed it" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

[Jack Denver]

Do earthworms cost less per pound than Starbucks coffee?

Post by Randy G.

Post by mpower
Does anyone know for certain the answer to this question?

I mentioned that the preservatives were not necessary and they would
add cost to the product.. I thought about that and it remnded me of a
Soemone started a rumor that MacDonalds was using ground earthworms in
their hamburgers. It made the rounds widely enough to prompt a
response by macDonalds- The stated tha tthe price of earthworms per
pound was quite a bit more than beef. The story immediately
disappeared.
Customer: "This Coffee tastes like DIRT!"
PBTC: "I know. It was (in the) ground (with earthworms) this morning."
Randy "it was funny when I typed it" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com