Discussion:
Woolworths Espresso maker (UK)
(too old to reply)
Mistaya
2005-10-25 19:56:53 UTC
Permalink
I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand) for £40
reduced from £80.
Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the machine and the
coffee it makes?

Nick
Dave Newt
2005-10-25 20:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mistaya
I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand) for £40
reduced from £80.
Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the machine and the
coffee it makes?
I haven't a clue, but here's a link for those who might:

http://www.woolworths.co.uk/ww_p2/product/index.jhtml?pid=50488437
D. Ross
2005-10-25 20:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Dave Newt <***@REMOVEgmail.THIScom> wrote:

| Mistaya wrote:
| > I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand) for £40
| > reduced from £80.
| > Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the machine and the
| > coffee it makes?
|
| I haven't a clue, but here's a link for those who might:
|
| http://www.woolworths.co.uk/ww_p2/product/index.jhtml?pid=50488437

I believe that this is a Breville Cafe Roma. Not a great machine by any
means, but a steal for 40 quid.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net
Brian Colwell
2005-10-26 02:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Ross
| > I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand) for £40
| > reduced from £80.
| > Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the machine and the
| > coffee it makes?
|
|
| http://www.woolworths.co.uk/ww_p2/product/index.jhtml?pid=50488437
I believe that this is a Breville Cafe Roma. Not a great machine by any
means, but a steal for 40 quid.
- David R.
--
http://www.demitasse.net
I think you are right David.........They are selling them here on the West
coast for $131.00 Can. approx 63 GBP ! I think they are mfg. in Australia ?

BMC

BMC
Guy Snape
2005-10-27 08:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Ross
| > I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand) for £40
| > reduced from £80.
| > Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the machine and the
| > coffee it makes?
|
|
| http://www.woolworths.co.uk/ww_p2/product/index.jhtml?pid=50488437
I believe that this is a Breville Cafe Roma. Not a great machine by any
means, but a steal for 40 quid.
I've got a Morphy Richards Cafe Roma, and it's very similar but not
identical to the one in the picture. It looks like the reservoir is not
removable on this one, whereas mine is (although I fill it with a jug).
Note that they removed the drip tray to fit the jug under the PF. I paid
just over 40 quid for mine and I'm very happy with it as a first
machine. I'm relying on preground until Christmas when I get a grinder,
but I think that milk hides some of the deficiencies in the espresso, so
the cappuccinos are comparable to what you get in, e.g. Marks and
Sparks' cafe. If you haven't owned an espresso machine before, I'd say
go for it.

- guy
Post by D. Ross
- David R.
--
http://www.demitasse.net
--
Remove the obvious to reply.
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-26 03:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mistaya
I have seen an espresso maker in Woolworths, (their own brand)
for £40
reduced from £80.
Has anyone got any comments to make about the quality of the
machine
and the
coffee it makes?
OK ..picked one of these up, (the Woolworth's Elevation), last
29 June 2004, as a 'sale' item for 29.99gbp in our local Woolies
store... :))

The immediately attractive thing, (knowing nothing about espresso)
was the 'cup warmer' plate. Additionally, the weight, fit and
finish of the machine just exuded a certain, indefinable, 'quality'.

What else, in the evening of that auspicious date? Ah yes..
discovering The Alties for the first time.. ;)) ..since then,
almost a year a half later, no looking back ..the experience is
and remains increasingly enjoyable.

First impressions of the 'Elevation', (as remembered from that
time):

Constructed in a heavy-weight stainless/chromed steel with
tight fitting and well-molded plastic bits (top and base).
All fixtures and fittings seem very well engineered with all
parts locking well together and exuding an air of surprising
quality, almost regardless of price!

There is a removeable 1.2 litre water tank, with bottom valve
that has now stood the test of daily insertion without any
ensuing drips.

The weight of the machine, (around 12 kilo or so), makes an
impression as a hefty piece of stable kit - note that it is a
two handed (and armed) move if attempting to shuffle the beast
around a kitchen work surface.

The group has the expected seal and stainless screen held by
a single central screw. The screen is easy to remove and
equally as easy to brush and clean in situ. Removing the
water tank and tipping the machine sideways to help with more
major cleaning doesn't reveal any untoward leaks or dribbles
- (of course, remove the power connection first)..

The pf - with two provided stainless pressure baskets of which
one is a double - and holding 14/18 grammes of espresso ground
coffee ..the other being a single 'stepped' which will hold
either 7/9 grammes or an individual 'pod' of pre-prepared grounds.
The base pf itself is aluminium - bit much to hope for chromed
marine brass in such a value machine! However, I suspect it
works as well as any other, up to Gaggia's Cubika or similar...

Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.
(Beware spare fingers - the jet will probably strip skin from
flesh and bone quite happily).

The vibratory pump is noisy(ish), but not excessively so -
and so far has shown no signs of faltering.

Returning the manual control to the centre release position
enables the excess pressure/water to immediately discharge
internally into the easily removeable and cleanable drip
tray.

There are two lights - one showing that power is connected
and 'on' ..the other showing that the heating element,
(a dual 925/1250 watt), is operating. The advice is to
operate once heated to temperature - around 90degC or so,
switching the manual control to the centre off position
as soon as the light re-engages. This then stops the pump
and releases the pressure via the three-way valve, stopping
over extraction of the coffee essence..

Fiddling about with the timing here allows the User to
fine-tune the production ..at least, that's my excuse!

The steam wand supports a rubberised attachment designed
to enable the frothing of cappas - although in use I have
found it easier to do without. The production of a nice
creamy micro-foam with the quality mouth-feel of velvet
is easier to produce rapidly without the bubble-maker.

Only one thing to really watch out for is to ensure that
the group head is flush cooled immediately after using
steam, otherwise the head remains just a little too hot
for espresso production. Without the cooling flush, the
coffee is bitter and 'thin'...

OK: The really important bit ..the coffee itself...

Being, (at that time and probably still ;), entirely
ignorant of matters espresso and, more to the point,
being used to the mostly yucky, bitter, acidic and watery
espresso of GB Starbucks and local 'joints', I followed
the Elevation's Manual to the letter and produced a shot
with a solid, if slightly pale, crema.

Was indeed the first time I'd ever seen such an excellent
'head' other than on a Guiness! The taste - well.. perhaps
you can imagine it.. all I could think of was ummm... WOW!

It really was quite the best espresso I'd ever tasted.
Dashing to the house next door, grabbed my somewhat
surprised neighbour and tried a 'shot' on him. The look
in his eyes said it all ..he was off to find a coffee
machine for himself..

Since then there's been many failures, many near-misses
but an increasing number of entirely pleasureable shots.
Yes ..to the ensemble I've added a cheapy sale price
burr grinder - a Hitachi costing only 9.95gbp. OK ..not
the best by any means, but at least the espresso grind
at it's finest and with finger jammed on knurled wheel is
'coffier' and certainly better tasting than even Illy's
pre-ground.

Pointers to the future? I think the next purchase will
most certainly be the grinder ..looking to Rancillio Rocky
or even the Mazzer Mini - but both are difficult to source
locally. (I'm one of these 'trusting' oldies that likes
to see and feel the goods before I purchase.. ;))

One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF. I suppose I should
be impressed, but somehow it's plasticky finish doesn't
seem to have quite the cache of the Rocky - and nothing
like the Starbuck's old Mazzer's that they've recently
replaced with new super-autos ..and no, don't ask ..I've
already tried to pursuade Starbucks regional management
to part with these old, worn out and clearly useless Mazzers
to a good, caring home for a nominal charge! Unfortunately,
der Starbucks Management was a bit wiser than I thought
..they intend passing them on to other of their establishments..

OK.. final dribble. The Woolworths machine, (The Elevation),
is identical to one badged by Hitachi, but is possibly the
Breville or whatever. To look it at superficially, the base,
the drip tray, the steam wand and the overall quality steel
construction looks very, very similar to photographs of the
Silvia, rather than, for instance, any Gaggia. Apart from a
small Woolies label on the underside, the Elevation has no
other external identity markings.

As I doubt Woolworths make their own machine, I have wondered
if the machine is actually assembled by someone such as
Rancillio as a method of keeping their Factory operating
at a reasonable capacity - smoothing out seasonal differences
as it were. Like so many Euro (Italian!) fridges and freezers,
I daresay Thermoblocks and cast aluminium pfs are churned out
from some central cave in the Tuscan amphitheatre. Despite,
the quality of Woolworth's Elevation overshadows the 'cheapness',
or rather value, of it's purchase price.

All in all ..excellent value and a formidable machine on
which to learn the rudiments and, lets face it, many if not
most of the skills involved, before investing in additional
devices. (I rather guess that, with the addition of a
quality grinder, I'll still be using the Elevation a year
from now)...

Ease of operation: 6/10
Ease of cleaning: 7/10
Ease/comprehensive User Instructions: 9/10

Espresso (taste to a beginner): 8/10 like ..WOW***

Overall value: 10/10

..and many thanks to The Assembled Multitude of Alties for the
benefit of shared advice and shere informed knowledge without
which this journey into the World of Coffee would have been
not only poorer, but mostly impossible..

Thanks all.. :))
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
D. Ross
2005-10-26 05:29:03 UTC
Permalink
| Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
| three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
| temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
| 'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.

Not (BTW) what is usually referred to as a '3-way valve' here. More of a
switch kind of thing.

| One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
| House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF.

Right now in the UK by far the best deal in a grinder is the Cunill
Tranquilo selling by at least one guy for 99 quid.

| OK.. final dribble. The Woolworths machine, (The Elevation),
| is identical to one badged by Hitachi, but is possibly the
| Breville or whatever.

I think Alan F. said it was a Breville design but Chinese manufacture.

| As I doubt Woolworths make their own machine, I have wondered
| if the machine is actually assembled by someone such as
| Rancillio as a method of keeping their Factory operating
| at a reasonable capacity

Not a chance. Rancilio has never made a thermoblock machine - even their
bottom-of-line machines (eg Betsy) are boiler machines.

| I daresay Thermoblocks and cast aluminium pfs are churned out
| from some central cave in the Tuscan amphitheatre.

Thermoblocks are very rare among Italian home machines. More common with
Groupe SEB companies, and the Swiss (who have made some good ones).

Glad you like your machine, and it is a great deal for 30-40 pounds, but I
think when you step up to a machine from Gaggia or better you will
appreciate the difference.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net
MikeSlog
2005-10-26 05:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi, having owned a Cafe Roma myself, which I got for AU$99 in stainless
steel - so not that different to the UK special price - here are a few
observations:

Portafilter: very lightweight aluminium with plastic 'crema disc'
insert. If you use the machine for a while and then check under the
plastic, you may be horrified by what you find. Filter basket is held
in by little plastic tab which must be held with your thumb as you bash
out the used grounds, and even then the basket might end up in the bin.

Filter baskets: pressurized, so from the inside the basket looks like a
normal one, but there is an extra layer underneath with only one tiny
hole, in order that the brewed coffee can shoot through the tiny hole
at high velocity, bash into the 'crema disc', and thereby create
something looking like crema.

Steaming: remove the frothing sleeve, get used to the "thump thump
thump" as water is squirted through the thermoblock, let it run into a
cup until the steam is relatively strong and dry (up to 60 secs or so),
and keep the wand surfing on the milk surface throughout and you can
get microfroth. Quite different to (and slower than) the 'stretch and
spin' approach on a more serious machine.

Which brings me to the bigger point: I don't think the Cafe Roma is in
fact much of a training tool for learning the skills of espresso
production. The basket design means you can't do much with tamp and
grind, the artificial crema means crema is not much of an indicator,
steaming requires a different approach as above, and so on.

I think a better choice (if you're interested in making espresso a bit
of a hobby) is to get the simplest/cheapest machine which makes
espresso in a more conventional way. As in with regular filter baskets,
some mass to hold heat, a pump and a boiler.

On the other hand, if this is all you can afford now, you probably
won't have much trouble getting your 'investment' back if you get this
and upgrade later. I was lucky enough to use mine then sell it for a
profit.

cheers, Mike
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-26 09:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeSlog
Hi, having owned a Cafe Roma myself, which I got for AU$99 in stainless
steel - so not that different to the UK special price - here are a few
[..snip useful and accurate observation to continue below]..
Post by MikeSlog
Steaming: remove the frothing sleeve, get used to the "thump thump
thump" as water is squirted through the thermoblock, let it run into a
cup until the steam is relatively strong and dry (up to 60 secs or so),
and keep the wand surfing on the milk surface throughout and you can
get microfroth. Quite different to (and slower than) the 'stretch and
spin' approach on a more serious machine.
Yes indeed. Have discovered this! The 'thump, thump' is
easy to accept and the speed I will leave to your description
- but the powerful jet of quite 'dry' steam that I seem to get
does appear to do the job... It churns the milk from a liquid
into a very smooth, velvety and creamy micro-foam that pours
just like a liquid. (I should say, aided by a Gaggia thermo
-probe thingy so I don't burn anything). I'm guessing it must
be at least near to the 'real thing'!
Post by MikeSlog
Which brings me to the bigger point: I don't think the Cafe Roma is in
fact much of a training tool for learning the skills of espresso
production. The basket design means you can't do much with tamp and
grind, the artificial crema means crema is not much of an indicator,
steaming requires a different approach as above, and so on.
As I've said elsewhere, I don't doubt your comments or the
comments of others ..after a year and half of just reading
alt.coffee - and following the many, many leads that you
have all offered, in all sorts of things coffee, I'm
beginning to get a hint of that which is important - and that
which is not quite so immediately useful.

At least my interest isn't waning ..and I'm learning all
the while.. Thank you - and all of you... :))
Post by MikeSlog
I think a better choice (if you're interested in making espresso a bit
of a hobby) is to get the simplest/cheapest machine which makes
espresso in a more conventional way. As in with regular filter baskets,
some mass to hold heat, a pump and a boiler.
mmm... I'm thinking a grinder first, possibly the Rocky
or even a Mazzer Mini if funds allow ..followed with something
like the Silvia rather than one of the cheaper Gaggias, or even
a Gaggia Classic..

It will certainly be interesting to compare my cheapy
machine with a grinder capable of clogging it up. In
a way, it's that age old question - which comes first,
the chicken or the egg. I'm guessing the espresso is
particularly in the 'grind' - perhaps even more so than
the machine. Mind, nice if both can be afforded together
and alt.coffee is one way of avoiding glaring mismatches
and a bonanza of mistakes...

Machine-wise, I'm not sure that my simple needs of perhaps
one or at the very most two espressos or cappas per day -
(multiple heart bypass et al) - would support something
like one of the Giotto..

Mind, I stand (or presently sit) to be easily corrected -
especially if some cannily priced steaming great brass covered,
pre-owned monster becomes available to a good home... Boys,
Toys ..and All That... ;))
Post by MikeSlog
On the other hand, if this is all you can afford now, you probably
won't have much trouble getting your 'investment' back if you get this
and upgrade later. I was lucky enough to use mine then sell it for a
profit.
I'm hoping to survive long enough to make a worthwhile investment,
which, with your advice and the advice of everyone around here
I'll be able to make before too long. Certainly, although being
quite aware that my 29.99gbp machine is not exactly the bees knees,
it at least affords me a taste sensation a little more palatable
than some of the commercial offerings in the near neighbourhood...

..and yes, I'm also discovering the little nooks and crannies
that I need to keep clean.. ..all useful 'education'.. ;))
Post by MikeSlog
cheers, Mike
Thanks for your very helpful observations, Mike - yet again, a
mine of useful information! Thank you..

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-26 09:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Ross
| Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
| three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
| temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
| 'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.
Not (BTW) what is usually referred to as a '3-way valve' here. More of a
switch kind of thing.
You are probably quite correct - except that switching
to the centre 'off' position not only stops the pump
but also the delivery to the pf which, as I mentioned,
immediately relieves the pressure and excess water via
a tube to the drip tray..

It may not be that which a solenoid valve does on some
expensive machine.. but, I wonder, perhaps not too far
short! At least it stops much of the over-extraction
that might otherwise occur..
Post by D. Ross
| One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
| House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF.
Right now in the UK by far the best deal in a grinder is the Cunill
Tranquilo selling by at least one guy for 99 quid.
..or the Rancillio Rocky which is available from a
wholesale merchant near here, if I can get in to have
a look at it.

However, my point is that neither your suggestion, nor
mine, is immediately available to us here as consumers,
from any normal retail outlet within our locality -
including any of 'specialist' establishments. I'm
therefore unable to physucally compare one item with
another, except through photo's and in mm.. et al.

...except, of course, for the ubiquitous Gaggia, who are
presently the only manufacturer who represent themselves
with a range of machinery, (except possibly for some offerings
from Kitchen Aid). Pity ..in a way the great unwashed such
as myself are, as yet, an untapped market.. ;))
Post by D. Ross
| OK.. final dribble. The Woolworths machine, (The Elevation),
| is identical to one badged by Hitachi, but is possibly the
| Breville or whatever.
I think Alan F. said it was a Breville design but Chinese manufacture.
| As I doubt Woolworths make their own machine, I have wondered
| if the machine is actually assembled by someone such as
| Rancillio as a method of keeping their Factory operating
| at a reasonable capacity
Not a chance. Rancilio has never made a thermoblock machine - even their
bottom-of-line machines (eg Betsy) are boiler machines.
..and I would not suggest that they do manufacture the same,
in house, as a matter of course...

My suggestion is that /any/ manufacturer, in keeping a factory
at work and ticking over, can easily source parts from 'outside'
- assembling the said parts into a cheapy job lot to please a
major retail group - especially one with international links.

When manufacturers do this ..and they certainly do, again as
I mentioned with Fridges, Freezers and, to add, dishwashers and
washing machines, the consumer can benefit from a quality
construction using cheap generic parts from an outside source.

Perhaps as just might be the case with the Elevation, a quality
feel and visible design shows through, despite the retail 29.99gbp!

Even the dash panel of a Mercedes, (or a Bentley), may these days
have screws manufactured elsewhere.. ;))
Post by D. Ross
| I daresay Thermoblocks and cast aluminium pfs are churned out
| from some central cave in the Tuscan amphitheatre.
Thermoblocks are very rare among Italian home machines. More common with
Groupe SEB companies, and the Swiss (who have made some good ones).
Glad you like your machine, and it is a great deal for 30-40 pounds, but I
think when you step up to a machine from Gaggia or better you will
appreciate the difference.
Oh believe me.. of that I have no doubt! I look forward to the
day :)) As a retired person, now a pensioner, I'll gradually
save my ackers until I can afford a really decent machine.

Meanwhile, I think my present route and cheapest of cheap machines
has put me in a sort of win/win situation..

1. I've been introduced to all you Alties ..a no mean
matter, as I'm sure you will agree.. Don't knock it!
Your aupport is invaluable...

2. I have acquired, from scratch, a great interest in all
things coffee. This interest, so far, isn't waning but
ticking happily over ..I'm a convert, hopefully without
being a blind fanatic!

3. I've discovered shopkeepers and at least one whole-
saler who is and are prepared to share at least some
of their expertise ..perhaps even encouraging them
to believe that there may be hope yet in the Great
Ignorance that surrounds them.. ;))

4. I already get more palatable 'espressos'/'cappas' than
any of the retail outlets in the City near here - even
Cafe Nero and Starbucks seem to present an evil, foul-
tasting liquor - at least to my older taste buds ..a
view that seems to be supported by my friends and
neighbours who are themselves re-discovering an interest
in coffee..

5. I've learned ..and can now accept ..that I need to
concentrate on the grinder first ..before being seduced
by enormously expensive and flashy bits of chrome and
plastic...

6. I have a continually increasing 'database' of all sorts
of things 'coffee' ..and a vocabulary that is beginning
to accidentally trip from off my tongue. (Well ..in
the Land of the Blind ..and all that).. ;))

..all this ..and more, for an initial outlay of 'only' 29.99gbp..

Now ..to plan my next shot a few minutes from now ..at last the
seaweed bladder is expanding and the outside air temp is just
beginning to..... ;))


Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Ken Wilson
2005-10-26 12:01:12 UTC
Permalink
"Bill (Adopt)"
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Oh believe me.. of that I have no doubt! I look forward to the
day :)) As a retired person, now a pensioner, I'll gradually
save my ackers until I can afford a really decent machine.
Meanwhile, I think my present route and cheapest of cheap machines
has put me in a sort of win/win situation..
Indeed.

One of the most sensible (ie in accord with my own view) "newbie" posts in
many a long moon.

Just a thought - have you considered the 2nd hand commercial market? eg the
2nd hand kitchen eqpmnt shop down the road from me produced a rather nice
machine for an altie albeit needing a certain amount of TLC. I don't think
they knew what they had.

ken
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 19:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Wilson
"Bill (Adopt)"
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Oh believe me.. of that I have no doubt! I look forward to the
day :)) As a retired person, now a pensioner, I'll gradually
save my ackers until I can afford a really decent machine.
Meanwhile, I think my present route and cheapest of cheap machines
has put me in a sort of win/win situation..
Indeed.
One of the most sensible (ie in accord with my own view) "newbie" posts in
many a long moon.
Thanks for the welcome, Ken! ..kind and supportive.. :))
Post by Ken Wilson
Just a thought - have you considered the 2nd hand commercial market? eg the
2nd hand kitchen eqpmnt shop down the road from me produced a rather nice
machine for an altie albeit needing a certain amount of TLC. I don't think
they knew what they had.
Um.. yes, it had crossed my mind - but I think I would need
to identify my own needs more clearly - and find a really
decent source who has such things cleverly available. I
tend to look hard for a long while, before coming to any
kind of conclusion..

..although, in my dreams, I can hear the rumblings of a
Harrison Ford 'Mosquito Coast' jungle coffee still ..with bits
of brass clad falling off, jiggling and hissing great gobs of
water vapour in every direction, shaking the house to it's
foundation until ..with a final triumphant gush and trembling
shake of the very ground ..a one ounce, perfectly formulated,
ultra-crema headed god-shot is issued..

..well ..I did say, "..in my dreams"!

..but thanks for your advice. I hadn't thought of it that
way. I'll have a look around and see if I can find an
establishment that's into refurbished commercials...

Thanks, Ken..

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Ken Wilson
2005-10-29 10:24:17 UTC
Permalink
"Bill (Adopt)"
Post by Bill (Adopt)
..although, in my dreams, I can hear the rumblings of a
Harrison Ford 'Mosquito Coast' jungle coffee still ..with bits
of brass clad falling off, jiggling and hissing great gobs of
water vapour in every direction, shaking the house to it's
foundation until ..with a final triumphant gush and trembling
shake of the very ground ..a one ounce, perfectly formulated,
ultra-crema headed god-shot is issued..
okay - next time you need to go to harrods - have a look at 6ft
copper/brass/multispouted "thing" in their coffee hall.

twould be a nightmare in my house - and i doubt whether it could match a
gaggia in terms of quality - but you might need a pinup to help with those
dreams.

ken
Post by Bill (Adopt)
..well ..I did say, "..in my dreams"!
..but thanks for your advice. I hadn't thought of it that
way. I'll have a look around and see if I can find an
establishment that's into refurbished commercials...
Thanks, Ken..
Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
D. Ross
2005-10-26 17:29:35 UTC
Permalink
| However, my point is that neither your suggestion, nor
| mine, is immediately available to us here as consumers,
| from any normal retail outlet within our locality -
| including any of 'specialist' establishments. I'm
| therefore unable to physucally compare one item with
| another, except through photo's and in mm.. et al.

This is certainly a problem for anyone who dislikes buying products sight
unseen - but for specialty coffee it is especially difficult, as there are
few walk-in outlets for such gear. You cold always travel south to see
Danny's Cunill, though that is a pricier/larger model than the one you can
get for 99ukp

| > Not a chance. Rancilio has never made a thermoblock machine - even their
| > bottom-of-line machines (eg Betsy) are boiler machines.
|
| ..and I would not suggest that they do manufacture the same,
| in house, as a matter of course...
|
| My suggestion is that /any/ manufacturer, in keeping a factory
| at work and ticking over, can easily source parts from 'outside'
| - assembling the said parts into a cheapy job lot to please a
| major retail group - especially one with international links.

Rancilio does in fact produce their own boilers in-house, a fact that came
as a bit of a surprise to me.

In any event, the source of the Breville is easily solved. Your machine
should wear a label with the place of manufacture on it; that will be the
locus of assembly. What place is mentioned?

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 16:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Ross
| However, my point is that neither your suggestion, nor
| mine, is immediately available to us here as consumers,
| from any normal retail outlet within our locality -
| including any of 'specialist' establishments. I'm
| therefore unable to physucally compare one item with
| another, except through photo's and in mm.. et al.
This is certainly a problem for anyone who dislikes buying products sight
unseen - but for specialty coffee it is especially difficult, as there are
few walk-in outlets for such gear. You cold always travel south to see
Danny's Cunill, though that is a pricier/larger model than the one you can
get for 99ukp
| > Not a chance. Rancilio has never made a thermoblock machine - even their
| > bottom-of-line machines (eg Betsy) are boiler machines.
|
| ..and I would not suggest that they do manufacture the same,
| in house, as a matter of course...
|
| My suggestion is that /any/ manufacturer, in keeping a factory
| at work and ticking over, can easily source parts from 'outside'
| - assembling the said parts into a cheapy job lot to please a
| major retail group - especially one with international links.
Rancilio does in fact produce their own boilers in-house, a fact that came
as a bit of a surprise to me.
..and which, of course, wouldn't stop them assembling
external components as an un-named, 'behind the scenes',
job lot for a retail outlet, should they wish to retain
their trained labour force in a rather slack period.
(There have been a few of these within the Euro Zone,
recently).

Not that this is the case - only a slight suspicion of
mine, given the observable and very reasonable quality
of assembly/construction of such a cheap, (or perhaps
good value), basic pumped coffee-machine...
Post by D. Ross
In any event, the source of the Breville is easily solved. Your machine
should wear a label with the place of manufacture on it; that will be the
locus of assembly. What place is mentioned?
..assuming that it /is/ Breville.. ;))

..there's nothing on the outer casing to indicate Manufacturer,
Assembler or Country of Origin. It's a sort of several-sided,
pristine shiny-chromed heavyish steel casing all around -
except for the well-constructed and close fitting dark plastic
lids and drip tray bits...

On the base is a stick-on 'metal' label upon which is stated:

Woolworths
Model no: 376D3620
Pump Espresso Coffee Maker
220V - 240V ~ 50Hz
950W - 1,100W (non-inked/stamped 3003) CE

There is no indication of origin within the manual,
nor upon the box in which the machine was delivered.

The nearest comment is an addition on the delivery
box which states,

"Imported for Woolworths Plc"
(Woolie's GB address, www, etc)

Perhaps another can fill in the internal component
detail that I'm not yet familiar with...?

hh.. :))

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Guy Snape
2005-10-27 09:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Post by D. Ross
| Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
| three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
| temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
| 'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.
Not (BTW) what is usually referred to as a '3-way valve' here. More of a
switch kind of thing.
You are probably quite correct - except that switching
to the centre 'off' position not only stops the pump
but also the delivery to the pf which, as I mentioned,
immediately relieves the pressure and excess water via
a tube to the drip tray..
It may not be that which a solenoid valve does on some
expensive machine.. but, I wonder, perhaps not too far
short! At least it stops much of the over-extraction
that might otherwise occur..
Post by D. Ross
| One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
| House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF.
Right now in the UK by far the best deal in a grinder is the Cunill
Tranquilo selling by at least one guy for 99 quid.
..or the Rancillio Rocky which is available from a
wholesale merchant near here, if I can get in to have
a look at it.
How much are they asking for it? I was planning on buying the Tranquilo,
but if a Rocky is available for a similar price ...

All the other comments on the Roma have been spot on, btw. I know the
baskets and PF aren't what they should be, but at least I can enjoy a
half decent cappuccino for the next year while I save up for a Silvia. I
once had a steam-driven toy (given to me by someone who was throwing it
out) which was a complete waste of time. I use the Roma several times a
day. My wife says it has "improved the quality of her life"!

- guy
Post by Bill (Adopt)
However, my point is that neither your suggestion, nor
mine, is immediately available to us here as consumers,
from any normal retail outlet within our locality -
including any of 'specialist' establishments. I'm
therefore unable to physucally compare one item with
another, except through photo's and in mm.. et al.
...except, of course, for the ubiquitous Gaggia, who are
presently the only manufacturer who represent themselves
with a range of machinery, (except possibly for some offerings
from Kitchen Aid). Pity ..in a way the great unwashed such
as myself are, as yet, an untapped market.. ;))
Post by D. Ross
| OK.. final dribble. The Woolworths machine, (The Elevation),
| is identical to one badged by Hitachi, but is possibly the
| Breville or whatever.
I think Alan F. said it was a Breville design but Chinese manufacture.
| As I doubt Woolworths make their own machine, I have wondered
| if the machine is actually assembled by someone such as
| Rancillio as a method of keeping their Factory operating
| at a reasonable capacity
Not a chance. Rancilio has never made a thermoblock machine - even their
bottom-of-line machines (eg Betsy) are boiler machines.
..and I would not suggest that they do manufacture the same,
in house, as a matter of course...
My suggestion is that /any/ manufacturer, in keeping a factory
at work and ticking over, can easily source parts from 'outside'
- assembling the said parts into a cheapy job lot to please a
major retail group - especially one with international links.
When manufacturers do this ..and they certainly do, again as
I mentioned with Fridges, Freezers and, to add, dishwashers and
washing machines, the consumer can benefit from a quality
construction using cheap generic parts from an outside source.
Perhaps as just might be the case with the Elevation, a quality
feel and visible design shows through, despite the retail 29.99gbp!
Even the dash panel of a Mercedes, (or a Bentley), may these days
have screws manufactured elsewhere.. ;))
Post by D. Ross
| I daresay Thermoblocks and cast aluminium pfs are churned out
| from some central cave in the Tuscan amphitheatre.
Thermoblocks are very rare among Italian home machines. More common with
Groupe SEB companies, and the Swiss (who have made some good ones).
Glad you like your machine, and it is a great deal for 30-40 pounds, but I
think when you step up to a machine from Gaggia or better you will
appreciate the difference.
Oh believe me.. of that I have no doubt! I look forward to the
day :)) As a retired person, now a pensioner, I'll gradually
save my ackers until I can afford a really decent machine.
Meanwhile, I think my present route and cheapest of cheap machines
has put me in a sort of win/win situation..
1. I've been introduced to all you Alties ..a no mean
matter, as I'm sure you will agree.. Don't knock it!
Your aupport is invaluable...
2. I have acquired, from scratch, a great interest in all
things coffee. This interest, so far, isn't waning but
ticking happily over ..I'm a convert, hopefully without
being a blind fanatic!
3. I've discovered shopkeepers and at least one whole-
saler who is and are prepared to share at least some
of their expertise ..perhaps even encouraging them
to believe that there may be hope yet in the Great
Ignorance that surrounds them.. ;))
4. I already get more palatable 'espressos'/'cappas' than
any of the retail outlets in the City near here - even
Cafe Nero and Starbucks seem to present an evil, foul-
tasting liquor - at least to my older taste buds ..a
view that seems to be supported by my friends and
neighbours who are themselves re-discovering an interest
in coffee..
5. I've learned ..and can now accept ..that I need to
concentrate on the grinder first ..before being seduced
by enormously expensive and flashy bits of chrome and
plastic...
6. I have a continually increasing 'database' of all sorts
of things 'coffee' ..and a vocabulary that is beginning
to accidentally trip from off my tongue. (Well ..in
the Land of the Blind ..and all that).. ;))
..all this ..and more, for an initial outlay of 'only' 29.99gbp..
Now ..to plan my next shot a few minutes from now ..at last the
seaweed bladder is expanding and the outside air temp is just
beginning to..... ;))
Bill ZFC
--
Remove the obvious to reply.
Ken Wilson
2005-10-27 18:32:50 UTC
Permalink
"Guy
Post by Guy Snape
I use the Roma several times a
day. My wife says it has "improved the quality of her life"!
tell all - does she drink coffee or does the effect on you of all that
caffeine have some (indescribable) beneficial effect?

ken
;-)
Guy Snape
2005-10-27 20:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Wilson
"Guy
Post by Guy Snape
I use the Roma several times a
day. My wife says it has "improved the quality of her life"!
tell all - does she drink coffee or does the effect on you of all that
caffeine have some (indescribable) beneficial effect?
It's just the coffee. How can you improve on perfection? :-)

- guy
Post by Ken Wilson
ken
;-)
--
Remove the obvious to reply.
Coffee for Connoisseurs
2005-10-27 21:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Brevilles are made in China. Sunbeams are made in China. A whole lot of
really cheap espresso machines are being made in China right now, and before
long a whole lot of really cheap, GOOD espresso machines will be. For anyone
who's interested, I've attached a scan of a recent department store
catalogue (300kb). All prices are in Australian dollars and include 10% tax.

Loading Image...

This sort of selection is something that the UK and USA will have to look
forward to in the near future.


--
Alan

***@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
D. Ross
2005-10-27 21:57:19 UTC
Permalink
| Brevilles are made in China.

That's what I said, but Bill seems toi want a notarized provenance:-)

| http://www.coffeeco.com.au/departmentstore.jpg

This is one store? Don't Breville/Sunbeam, Gaggia/Saeco, DeLonghi, and Group
SEB (Krups) all have different distributors in Australia?

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net
MikeSlog
2005-10-27 22:09:20 UTC
Permalink
As another Aussie, I can say that it is indeed one store. And this sort
of double-page coffee spread is seen at a number of other stores too.
Can't tell you anything about distribution, though. Does your question
imply that each store in the US deals with only one distributor?

Alan's post is the first I've heard suggesting Australia is getting a
greater selection of machines at this level. Of course, how many
different flavours of crap does one need?
D. Ross
2005-10-28 00:23:13 UTC
Permalink
| Can't tell you anything about distribution, though. Does your question
| imply that each store in the US deals with only one distributor?

Not in general, but I think for a specialty product (such as espressomakers)
one is not uncommon, two already quite unusual.

| greater selection of machines at this level. Of course, how many
| different flavours of crap does one need?

There are a few very good home machines on that page.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net
Jack Denver
2005-10-28 01:44:47 UTC
Permalink
That's a whole lotta machines in one place, more selection than you would
find from any department store in the US. OTOH, the cheaper machines were
mostly thermoblocks and the more expensive ones were not particularly
bargains. There appeared to be one remarkably cheap Sunbeam boiler machine
but I'm guessing the thing is very lightweight and with a tiny
boiler...still, it sold for less than anyone in the US would charge just for
a replacement pump.
Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs
Brevilles are made in China. Sunbeams are made in China. A whole lot of
really cheap espresso machines are being made in China right now, and before
long a whole lot of really cheap, GOOD espresso machines will be. For anyone
who's interested, I've attached a scan of a recent department store
catalogue (300kb). All prices are in Australian dollars and include 10% tax.
http://www.coffeeco.com.au/departmentstore.jpg
This sort of selection is something that the UK and USA will have to look
forward to in the near future.
--
Alan
www.coffeeco.com.au
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 16:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Snape
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Post by D. Ross
| One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
| House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF.
Right now in the UK by far the best deal in a grinder is the Cunill
Tranquilo selling by at least one guy for 99 quid.
..or the Rancillio Rocky which is available from a
wholesale merchant near here, if I can get in to have
a look at it.
How much are they asking for it? I was planning on buying the Tranquilo,
but if a Rocky is available for a similar price ...
..oops! Sorry.. I was meaning a local wholesaler who
apparently deals in Rancillio, among other makes, for
the industry, rather than for consumer retail outlets.

The Buyer(?) to whom I was introduced knows I'm thinking
Rocky.. so he may be able to negotiate a price ex retail..
we'll see, when he has the time to get back.

He's presently promised - only a few days ago - to get
together some interesting information on various coffee
aspects, including machinery, grinders, small roasters
et al, for this 'nut'.

The wholesaler as such deals in the large commercial
sector and with the larger machines - but does pick up
smaller ones, on occasion, for his customers special needs.

I think I'll give him time to get back within his busy
travel schedule - seeing as he's also kindly issued an
invite to view one of their roasting sessions..

Other than that ..180.00gbp is the cheaper retail price
that I've seen recently on the website for Drury in London
- or just over 200.00gbp (euro ex) directly from Rancillio,
but I daresay you'll already have these prices...

Sorry not to be more helpful just at the moment..

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Guy Snape
2005-10-27 20:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Post by Guy Snape
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Post by D. Ross
| One grinder that is immediately available (John Lewis or
| House of Fraser) is the Gaggia MDF.
Right now in the UK by far the best deal in a grinder is the Cunill
Tranquilo selling by at least one guy for 99 quid.
..or the Rancillio Rocky which is available from a
wholesale merchant near here, if I can get in to have
a look at it.
How much are they asking for it? I was planning on buying the Tranquilo,
but if a Rocky is available for a similar price ...
..oops! Sorry.. I was meaning a local wholesaler who
apparently deals in Rancillio, among other makes, for
the industry, rather than for consumer retail outlets.
The Buyer(?) to whom I was introduced knows I'm thinking
Rocky.. so he may be able to negotiate a price ex retail..
we'll see, when he has the time to get back.
He's presently promised - only a few days ago - to get
together some interesting information on various coffee
aspects, including machinery, grinders, small roasters
et al, for this 'nut'.
The wholesaler as such deals in the large commercial
sector and with the larger machines - but does pick up
smaller ones, on occasion, for his customers special needs.
I think I'll give him time to get back within his busy
travel schedule - seeing as he's also kindly issued an
invite to view one of their roasting sessions..
Other than that ..180.00gbp is the cheaper retail price
that I've seen recently on the website for Drury in London
- or just over 200.00gbp (euro ex) directly from Rancillio,
but I daresay you'll already have these prices...
Yes, seen that, thanks.
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Sorry not to be more helpful just at the moment..
No problem, interesting stuff. If he gives you a good price on the
Rocky, maybe you could see if he'll do a couple?

Cheers,

- guy
Post by Bill (Adopt)
Bill ZFC
--
Remove the obvious to reply.
Jack Denver
2005-10-26 13:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Ross
| Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
| three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
| temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
| 'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.
Not (BTW) what is usually referred to as a '3-way valve' here. More of a
switch kind of thing.
snip

Both a plumbing valve and an electrical switch... I'd call it a selector.
When you turn the knob it physically redirects the output of the thermoblock
from the group head to the steam wand. It also changes electrical
connections to put the machine in steam mode. In my old Krups, it would put
some kind of pulse circuit in series with the pump - the pump would pulse
little drops of water into the thermoblock where they would flash to steam
and come out the steam wand. pop pop pop pop....Noisy and not very
effective.

I had no idea that the Woolworths name had survived in the UK. In the US
they have joined the pantheon of extinct retailers and I hadn't heard their
name for years. Now that I think back on them, its hard to believe that a
chain that was once ubiquitious in every town is now completely gone. They
were retailing dinosaurs but not without their quirky charms - the ice
cream sandwiches made with waffles and neopolitan ice cream... the parakeets
in the pet department. It was like visiting the home of a slightly eccentric
older relative. Walmarts seem antiseptic and dull in comparison. Progress
is unstoppable but I wish Shiva would take a break once in a while.
Danny
2005-10-26 20:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Jack Denver wrote:
-snip-
Post by Jack Denver
I had no idea that the Woolworths name had survived in the UK. In the US
they have joined the pantheon of extinct retailers and I hadn't heard their
name for years. Now that I think back on them, its hard to believe that a
chain that was once ubiquitious in every town is now completely gone. They
were retailing dinosaurs but not without their quirky charms - the ice
cream sandwiches made with waffles and neopolitan ice cream... the parakeets
in the pet department. It was like visiting the home of a slightly eccentric
older relative. Walmarts seem antiseptic and dull in comparison. Progress
is unstoppable but I wish Shiva would take a break once in a while.
Still alive and kicking here - one in most towns:

http://www.woolworths.co.uk/
--
Regards,
Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply
MikeSlog
2005-10-26 23:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

As far as trying the Woolworths machine with a quality grinder goes, I
think you will see some improvement in flavour and also more consistent
results. Once you get there, why not try roasting some beans too? Fresh
roasted beans were responsible for the biggest leap I've experienced in
espresso quality, and it's dirt cheap to do. Anyway I have a feeling
you've read plenty on this already.

Once you've got a good grinder and fresh beans, it opens up a world
where all kinds of (cheaply made) coffee can be rewarding - from
straight espresso to filter, plunger, turkish, open pot etc etc. It's
good to be familiar with all the options when you are trying to resist
those enormously expensive and flashy bits of chrome!

All the best, Mike
Post by Danny
-snip-
Post by Jack Denver
I had no idea that the Woolworths name had survived in the UK. In the US
they have joined the pantheon of extinct retailers and I hadn't heard their
name for years. Now that I think back on them, its hard to believe that a
chain that was once ubiquitious in every town is now completely gone. They
were retailing dinosaurs but not without their quirky charms - the ice
cream sandwiches made with waffles and neopolitan ice cream... the parakeets
in the pet department. It was like visiting the home of a slightly eccentric
older relative. Walmarts seem antiseptic and dull in comparison. Progress
is unstoppable but I wish Shiva would take a break once in a while.
http://www.woolworths.co.uk/
--
Regards,
Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply
MikeSlog
2005-10-27 05:58:29 UTC
Permalink
One more thing, on the 3-way valve issue. I choked the Cafe Roma a few
times, and had to wait and then very slowly remove the portafilter to
avoid spraying grounds everywhere, so it doesn't seem to me that the
selector acts as a 3-way to release pressure on the puck. Perhaps what
drips into the back of the drip tray is the output of an overpressure
valve, or something else?
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 18:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeSlog
One more thing, on the 3-way valve issue. I choked the Cafe Roma a few
times, and had to wait and then very slowly remove the portafilter to
avoid spraying grounds everywhere, so it doesn't seem to me that the
selector acts as a 3-way to release pressure on the puck. Perhaps what
drips into the back of the drip tray is the output of an overpressure
valve, or something else?
um.. perhaps it may be better to describe the valve as
releasing pressure from the Group, rather than the pf.

The only pressure that would then remain is that already
stored within the pf's basket - the shower screen only
being a smidgin below the heating base of the group head..

Turning the valve to the centre thus switching off the
pump and allowing any excess to drain internally to the
drip tray does seem to curtail the mousetail(s) almost
immediately ..so it is a positive in preventing over-
extraction..

I haven't tried this yet - but will shortly - and that is
to centralise the valve/switch at the appropriate time -
and then just allow the mousetails to shut off as the
pressure relaxes - leaving the pf fully in place and the
cup fully in place until any the minor drip ceases.

The contents of the drip tray - on the release of pressure
- should remain clear if the contents are purely from the
'root' of the group. However, if there is any 'suck-back'
- sort of a negative pressure wave involving the pf basket
itself, then the contents of the clean drip tray might just
become slightly coffee-coloured.

I haven't thought to try this, but the result might be
easyish to spot.. Just a thought..

..all this and more, for only 29.99gbp..

Wow! This really is a stake in advanced education... ;))

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 18:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeSlog
Hi Bill,
..Mike .. :))
Post by MikeSlog
Once you've got a good grinder and fresh beans, it opens up a world
where all kinds of (cheaply made) coffee can be rewarding - from
straight espresso to filter, plunger, turkish, open pot etc etc. It's
good to be familiar with all the options when you are trying to resist
those enormously expensive and flashy bits of chrome!
..why, thank you, Mike ..and everyone for your thoughtful
and kind comments. I must apologise as I've seemed to
have accidentally started hogging some of the coffee-waves
over the last few hours. Unintentional - unless it's an
affect of excess caffeine, of course..!

As each little mental note that I have is answered, a whole
load more suddenly rear their sweet little heads ..and
your support, as the support of all Alties ..is always worth
it's weight in mmm... malabar gold..?!?

..perhaps I better lie low again for a while ..but thank
you all for your interest and support...

Bill ZFC

Bill ZFC
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
Dan
2005-10-26 13:03:05 UTC
Permalink
"Using a 15 bar thermoblock, there is a manually operated
three-way valve, turning one way for espresso, the other
temporarily increasing the heat for a more than adequate
'dry' jet of powerful steam from the steam wand.
(Beware spare fingers - the jet will probably strip skin from
flesh and bone quite happily). "

The one thing I will say about the rotary switch at the front is that
when I looked at it in a branch, it did seem a little bit tight to
turn, and felt as if it may be a weak point in the machine - rocker
switches seem far more robust IMO
Bill (Adopt)
2005-10-27 17:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
The one thing I will say about the rotary switch at the front is that
when I looked at it in a branch, it did seem a little bit tight to
turn, and felt as if it may be a weak point in the machine - rocker
switches seem far more robust IMO
Not yet having had the chance to use rocker switches, I
can only agree that you are absolutely correct - playing
with them in a local John Lewis outlet recently and, yes,
they are /much/ easier! (*1)

Takes the guess work out of just 'when' to twist-release
a pressure/pump valve-switch..

However ..given the limitations of such a cheap (or good
value) machine - and having used one for almost eighteen
months now, the rotary valve is still slightly stiff,
although it does ease up once the machine is warmed and
ready to go..

However, there is still no significant 'play' within the
mechanism, which still 'feels' quite connected and 'solid'
..sort of complimenting the visible quality of the rest of
the apparatus.

One thing I have noticed is that the mechanism does tend
to sticky-up slightly during a period of use - so 'telling'
a sensitive User that it needs de-scaling ..after which
immediate descale it all smoothly eases up again -- until
the next time a while of use later..

..of course, it isn't exactly a Giotto Premium.. ;))

Bill ZFC

(*1): ..also managed to dismantle the business end of a
Kitchen Aid grinder - that then resolutely refused to be
re-assembled - either by myself, or by the two Sales
Partners who came, so politely, to my aid ...Ooops!

..tiptoe ..gently ..exit -stage right.. #))
--
Bill ZFC
http://www.billsimpson.com/
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