Water Softeners and Salty Tates

[GeeDubb]

As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group machine
to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener in tandem with a
.5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some of the bad tastes
associated with the water here in Phoenix. I seem to have some high
sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that comes with a softener of this
type and it produces really bad espresso to boot. So bad that most shots
are tossed and I've gone back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an
incredible shot of Malabar Gold this morning.

So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting test a
few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did not.

I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt taste
hasn't gone completely.

Will the salt taste go away?

How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it give a
different taste of mouthfeel?

TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

[jim schulman]

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group machine
to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener in tandem with a
.5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some of the bad tastes
associated with the water here in Phoenix. I seem to have some high
sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that comes with a softener of this
type and it produces really bad espresso to boot. So bad that most shots
are tossed and I've gone back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an
incredible shot of Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting test a
few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt taste
hasn't gone completely.

If the softener has recently been charged with salt, it may need to be
flushed to remove excess salt. The amount of flushing needed for this
should be in the tanks instructions.

Post by GeeDubb
Will the salt taste go away?

Maybe not. Water softeners work by replacing calcium with sodium or
potassium (also tastes salty) ions. The amount added is below most
people's taste threshold, but, conceivably, not below yours.

Also since you like espresso made with RO water, which to most people
tastes strange (to put it mildly), you may dislike espresso made with
water that has substantial mineral content.

Finally, ion-exchanged water is "odd," because it contains a high
proportion of carbonate ions, but no calcium ions, which are removed.
This is very different from natural water which gets its minerals by
running through limestone strata. A few people have told me that the
resulting taste difference really annoys them (I find it negligable).
You might want to try syphoning a few shots from a bottle of spring
water purchased at a store and seeing how you like that taste.

An added note: You should do water experiments under equal conditions.
Since the Silvia is moe convenient, compare the RO, softened water and
spring water in it.

[GeeDubb]

Post by jim schulman

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting
test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did
not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.

If the softener has recently been charged with salt, it may need to be
flushed to remove excess salt. The amount of flushing needed for this
should be in the tanks instructions.

Post by GeeDubb
Will the salt taste go away?

Maybe not. Water softeners work by replacing calcium with sodium or
potassium (also tastes salty) ions. The amount added is below most
people's taste threshold, but, conceivably, not below yours.
Also since you like espresso made with RO water, which to most people
tastes strange (to put it mildly), you may dislike espresso made with
water that has substantial mineral content.
Finally, ion-exchanged water is "odd," because it contains a high
proportion of carbonate ions, but no calcium ions, which are removed.
This is very different from natural water which gets its minerals by
running through limestone strata. A few people have told me that the
resulting taste difference really annoys them (I find it negligable).
You might want to try syphoning a few shots from a bottle of spring
water purchased at a store and seeing how you like that taste.
An added note: You should do water experiments under equal conditions.
Since the Silvia is moe convenient, compare the RO, softened water and
spring water in it.

Good idea Jim. Thanks. Since I have the three necessary water ingredients
I'll try that with Silvia tomorrow.

There seems to be a large learning curve with this commercial machine as
well, trying to dial in the boiler pressure vs. water temp. I don't have
any scientific means of measuring the brew water temp other than a stick
thermometer but I'm only getting about 185°F into a cup, accuracy is
minimal. The shots I made tonight were quite sour which leads me to believe
the brew temp. is too low.

What with the water taste and temp difference this is becoming a very time
consuming endeavor.

Gotta go, coffee is a roasting.

Gary

[Simpson]

In article <bu2fus$cvs97$***@ID-125725.news.uni-berlin.de>,
***@qwest.net says...
snip

Post by GeeDubb
There seems to be a large learning curve with this commercial machine as
well, trying to dial in the boiler pressure vs. water temp. I don't have
any scientific means of measuring the brew water temp other than a stick
thermometer but I'm only getting about 185°F into a cup, accuracy is
minimal. The shots I made tonight were quite sour which leads me to believe
the brew temp. is too low.
What with the water taste and temp difference this is becoming a very time
consuming endeavor.

Gary, if you haven't replaced either the p-stat or the p-stat
membrane, I'll bet you have a horrendous deadband which leads to
really poor consistency.

Also, periodically blip the steam wand to keep the heating element on
to get increased heat. But I'll bet it is a hardened diaphragm...

Ted

[GeeDubb]

Post by Simpson
snip

Post by GeeDubb
There seems to be a large learning curve with this commercial
machine as well, trying to dial in the boiler pressure vs. water
temp. I don't have any scientific means of measuring the brew water
temp other than a stick thermometer but I'm only getting about 185°F
into a cup, accuracy is minimal. The shots I made tonight were
quite sour which leads me to believe the brew temp. is too low.
What with the water taste and temp difference this is becoming a
very time consuming endeavor.

Gary, if you haven't replaced either the p-stat or the p-stat
membrane, I'll bet you have a horrendous deadband which leads to
really poor consistency.
Also, periodically blip the steam wand to keep the heating element on
to get increased heat. But I'll bet it is a hardened diaphragm...
Ted

I really have to write to the seller (Tea & Coffee out of Houston) and see
if they can tell me what exactly they did to this machine to get it in "like
new condition". I keep saying that but I'm really going to do it.....right
now.....yea uh huh!

The steam pressure guage reads slightly on the low end of the 'optimum'
reading. The boiler element cycles quite periodically but I'm not sure what
the interval is. I do know that the heater only stays on for about 25
seconds and then off again for an indeterminate time, I'll have to pay more
attention but then I'll have to move the computer into the coffee
room........

Where's a good place to buy a triple basket?

Gary

[Adam Stephens]

A lot of "industrial" water softeners use an acid system. Are these
available for the home, or are they considered unsafe/too complicated
(they are a two-step process, and would involve you replenishing acids
and bases)? I think the water from them might taste less salty.

Adam

Post by jim schulman

Post by GeeDubb
Will the salt taste go away?

Maybe not. Water softeners work by replacing calcium with sodium or
potassium (also tastes salty) ions.

[GeeDubb]

Post by Adam Stephens
A lot of "industrial" water softeners use an acid system. Are these
available for the home, or are they considered unsafe/too complicated
(they are a two-step process, and would involve you replenishing acids
and bases)? I think the water from them might taste less salty.
Adam

Post by jim schulman

Post by GeeDubb
Will the salt taste go away?

Maybe not. Water softeners work by replacing calcium with sodium or
potassium (also tastes salty) ions.

I believe that two+ stages are available for home use but the expensive.
For roughly $160 US I can install an RO system. It just frosts my butt that
I spent $125 to salt my coffee!

Gary

[Jack Denver]

Do you know what the pre-softening hardness is? The amount of sodium
introduced is directly proportional to the minerals replaced. Also this is
on top of whatever sodium is originally present in the water.

If you don't like the taste of salt, you'll like potassium even less - it is
perceived as a bitter taste.

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group machine
to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener in tandem with a
.5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some of the bad tastes
associated with the water here in Phoenix. I seem to have some high
sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that comes with a softener of this
type and it produces really bad espresso to boot. So bad that most shots
are tossed and I've gone back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an
incredible shot of Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting test a
few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt taste
hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it give a
different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

[GeeDubb]

Post by Jack Denver
Do you know what the pre-softening hardness is? The amount of sodium
introduced is directly proportional to the minerals replaced. Also
this is on top of whatever sodium is originally present in the water.
If you don't like the taste of salt, you'll like potassium even less
- it is perceived as a bitter taste.

Thanks Jack. Alway helpful. I'll look into getting a hardness test kit to
see what my baseline is.

Gary

Post by Jack Denver

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting
test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did
not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it
give a different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

[HarryM]

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group machine
to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener in tandem with a
.5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some of the bad tastes
associated with the water here in Phoenix. I seem to have some high
sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that comes with a softener of this
type and it produces really bad espresso to boot. So bad that most shots
are tossed and I've gone back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an
incredible shot of Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting test a
few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt taste
hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it give a
different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

We have a salt softener for washing/bathing use and a R/O system for
cooking/drinking. The salt/mineral taste never leaves the water in that
system. That is why we have the R/O system for drinking. It took a while
for us to get used to the taste [or absence of taste] of the R/O water, but
now we thrive on it -- so much so that we take it with us when travelling.
My wife took it to her office for their coffee service. Some people seem to
dislike it [R/O] in espresso, but I have never had a problem with it.
Untreated water where we live makes coffee that crawls up the side of the
cup, a really nasty film covers the cup. One of our local coffee shops
serves this gunk; I drink tea when we go there. The others serve coffee
made with filtered water. The film doesn't really taste bad, just looks
bad. harrym

[GeeDubb]

Post by HarryM

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting
test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did
not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it
give a different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

We have a salt softener for washing/bathing use and a R/O system for
cooking/drinking. The salt/mineral taste never leaves the water in
that system. That is why we have the R/O system for drinking. It
took a while for us to get used to the taste [or absence of taste]
of the R/O water, but now we thrive on it -- so much so that we take
it with us when travelling. My wife took it to her office for their
coffee service. Some people seem to dislike it [R/O] in espresso,
but I have never had a problem with it. Untreated water where we live
makes coffee that crawls up the side of the cup, a really nasty film
covers the cup. One of our local coffee shops serves this gunk; I
drink tea when we go there. The others serve coffee made with
filtered water. The film doesn't really taste bad, just looks bad.
harrym

The water here in Phoenix varies in taste depending on time of year. A lot
more chlorine in the hot summer. It's just horrible to the point where one
can hardly brush their teeth with it. That's why I put in the RO and I've
used one for the last eight years. I never thought about the taste of
softened water or how it was softened.

I've always noticed salty tastes to coffee I order in restaurant or coffee
shops which is why I seldom order coffee out any more. If I can't get use
to it I'll chalk it up to a learning experience and buy another RO but add a
calcifier in line to see if that makes a difference.

Thanks for the input.

Gary (I could by a buzzroaster for what this may cost me!) W.

[HarryM]

Post by GeeDubb
The water here in Phoenix varies in taste depending on time of year. A lot
more chlorine in the hot summer. It's just horrible to the point where one
can hardly brush their teeth with it. That's why I put in the RO and I've
used one for the last eight years. I never thought about the taste of
softened water or how it was softened.
I've always noticed salty tastes to coffee I order in restaurant or coffee
shops which is why I seldom order coffee out any more. If I can't get use
to it I'll chalk it up to a learning experience and buy another RO but add a
calcifier in line to see if that makes a difference.
Thanks for the input.
Gary (I could by a buzzroaster for what this may cost me!) W.

The most noticable difference for us is in the ice cubes. Water from our
softener makes cloudy ice cubes. The R/O water makes crystal clear ice
cubes. harrym

[Anthony Leverock]

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group machine
to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener in tandem with a
.5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some of the bad tastes
associated with the water here in Phoenix. I seem to have some high
sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that comes with a softener of this
type and it produces really bad espresso to boot. So bad that most shots
are tossed and I've gone back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an
incredible shot of Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting test a
few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt taste
hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it give a
different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

I have been using potassium salt for several years now for my
espresso. Although still salty, it does have a less salty taste than
sodium chloride. I do not detect a significant bitter component to
it. I must point out, however, that Phoenix water tastes fine to me.

- --
Anthony
(remove x's to reply)

[GeeDubb]

Post by Anthony Leverock

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting
test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did
not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it
give a different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

I have been using potassium salt for several years now for my
espresso. Although still salty, it does have a less salty taste than
sodium chloride. I do not detect a significant bitter component to
it. I must point out, however, that Phoenix water tastes fine to me.
- --
Anthony
(remove x's to reply)

It's funny. I was born and raised here (Phoenix, 1960) and never thought
about the taste of the water until I got an RO system. I've never looked
back and can only drink tap water if it's near freezing. I'm sure that if
I give it time I'll get use to the softened water. I may see about
changing to a potassium softener or at least sampling water treated with a
potassium based system.

Do you live in Phoenix?

Gary

[Jack Denver]

There is no such thing as a potassium softener. You use the exact same
softener and same resins, but when it is time to recharge, you recharge with
KCl instead of NaCl. In order for this to work, I think the resins have to
first need recharging so you'd have to run enough water thru to exhaust the
sodium ions that are there now. But switching just means buying a bag of
potassium salt, so it is probl. worth trying.

Post by GeeDubb

Post by Anthony Leverock

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and gives a
different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our water tasting
test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt which she did
not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it
give a different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

I have been using potassium salt for several years now for my
espresso. Although still salty, it does have a less salty taste than
sodium chloride. I do not detect a significant bitter component to
it. I must point out, however, that Phoenix water tastes fine to me.
- --
Anthony
(remove x's to reply)

It's funny. I was born and raised here (Phoenix, 1960) and never thought
about the taste of the water until I got an RO system. I've never looked
back and can only drink tap water if it's near freezing. I'm sure that if
I give it time I'll get use to the softened water. I may see about
changing to a potassium softener or at least sampling water treated with a
potassium based system.
Do you live in Phoenix?
Gary

[GeeDubb]

Post by Jack Denver
There is no such thing as a potassium softener. You use the exact same
softener and same resins, but when it is time to recharge, you
recharge with KCl instead of NaCl. In order for this to work, I think
the resins have to first need recharging so you'd have to run enough
water thru to exhaust the sodium ions that are there now. But
switching just means buying a bag of potassium salt, so it is probl.
worth trying.

Thanks Jack.

Once again.

Gary

Post by Jack Denver

Post by GeeDubb

Post by Anthony Leverock

Post by GeeDubb
As some may recall I recently added a plumbed-in commercial 2-group
machine to my home coffee world. I also opted for a water softener
in tandem with a .5-1 micron charcoal filter to help eliminate some
of the bad tastes associated with the water here in Phoenix. I
seem to have some high sensitivity to the salt imparted taste that
comes with a softener of this type and it produces really bad
espresso to boot. So bad that most shots are tossed and I've gone
back to the RO fed Silvia with which I made an incredible shot of
Malabar Gold this morning.
So I've googled and came across many threads, one of which
http://tinyurl.com/32poz
has some of you stating that the salt taste in negligible and
gives a different mouthfeel (which is what my wife said in our
water tasting test a few minutes ago). But I still taste the salt
which she did not.
I flushed many gallons of water through the softener but the salt
taste hasn't gone completely.
Will the salt taste go away?
How many of you use a softener that uses potassium salts? Does it
give a different taste of mouthfeel?
TIA
Gary ( foreseeing another RO system in my future) W.

I have been using potassium salt for several years now for my
espresso. Although still salty, it does have a less salty taste
than sodium chloride. I do not detect a significant bitter
component to it. I must point out, however, that Phoenix water
tastes fine to me.
- --
Anthony
(remove x's to reply)

It's funny. I was born and raised here (Phoenix, 1960) and never
thought about the taste of the water until I got an RO system. I've
never looked back and can only drink tap water if it's near
freezing. I'm sure that if I give it time I'll get use to the
softened water. I may see about changing to a potassium softener
or at least sampling water treated with a potassium based system.
Do you live in Phoenix?
Gary

[Anthony Leverock]

Post by GeeDubb

Post by Jack Denver
There is no such thing as a potassium softener. You use the exact same
softener and same resins, but when it is time to recharge, you
recharge with KCl instead of NaCl. In order for this to work, I think
the resins have to first need recharging so you'd have to run enough
water thru to exhaust the sodium ions that are there now. But
switching just means buying a bag of potassium salt, so it is probl.
worth trying.

Thanks Jack.
Once again.
Gary

Gary -

BTW, I purchase my potassium salt at Home Depot.

- --
Anthony

[Anthony Leverock]

Post by GeeDubb
It's funny. I was born and raised here (Phoenix, 1960) and never thought
about the taste of the water until I got an RO system. I've never looked
back and can only drink tap water if it's near freezing. I'm sure that if
I give it time I'll get use to the softened water. I may see about
changing to a potassium softener or at least sampling water treated with a
potassium based system.
Do you live in Phoenix?
Gary

RO systems are good. I have an RO system in my kitchen. We use that
water for drinking and cooking. Better to be safe than sorry.

Actually, I live in Tempe, but I work in Phoenix.

- --
Anthony