Gaggia aluminum vs stainless boiler (Carezza vs Espresso Color)

[n***@yahoo.com]

Hi all,

Haven't posted on here in years...

We've been pretty happy with our home setup - Gaggia Carezza with a
Rocky grinder and good locally roasted beans. But the Carezza's a
couple of years old and I see WLL has the Espresso Color on sale. For
a mere $200 I can upgrade to a stainless steel boiler.

I have hunted online in vain for some solid unbiased information on
the aluminum vs. steel boiler in Gaggia. Anyone have experience or
thoughts they'd like to share? Anyone own the Espresso Color and hate
it? We've been satisfied with the results from the Carezza ever since
we invested in the Rocky grinder, so while I'm forever tempted to blow
a wad on a Silvia, I remind myself that I'm really not a high-end
consumer prepared to start learning what PID means...

I'd be grateful, as ever, for the insights of this group. I know
aluminum boilers have a tendency to corrode but am wondering how
Gaggia can offer me the stainless boiler at the same price point as
the Carezza. Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?

THanks!
Nan

[shixx]

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Hi all,
Haven't posted on here in years...
We've been pretty happy with our home setup - Gaggia Carezza with a
Rocky grinder and good locally roasted beans.  But the Carezza's a
couple of years old and I see WLL has the Espresso Color on sale. For
a mere $200 I can upgrade to a stainless steel boiler.
I have hunted online in vain for some solid unbiased information on
the aluminum vs. steel boiler in Gaggia.  Anyone have experience or
thoughts they'd like to share? Anyone own the Espresso Color and hate
it?  We've been satisfied with the results from the Carezza ever since
we invested in the Rocky grinder, so while I'm forever tempted to blow
a wad on a Silvia, I remind myself that I'm really not a high-end
consumer prepared to start learning what PID means...
I'd be grateful, as ever, for the insights of this group.  I know
aluminum boilers have a tendency to corrode but am wondering how
Gaggia can offer me the stainless boiler at the same price point as
the Carezza. Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

the steel boilers are the ones that have been used in Saeco for
years. they are stamped metal

Saeco owns Gaggia

[Robert Harmon]

...  I know
aluminum boilers have a tendency to corrode but am wondering how
Gaggia can offer me the stainless boiler at the same price point as
the Carezza. Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

Howdy Nan!
For information about Gaggia home espresso machines check out the
Gaggia User's Group link below. There you'll find Gaggia experts
who'll answer all your questions. Once there, click on Messages and
enter "pure or color" as search parameters.

Regards,
Robert (Tex) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/2j8jur - Gaggia User's Group
http://tinyurl.com/235dfr - BUG is Bunn User's Group (espresso)

[Coffee for Connoisseurs]

Post by Robert Harmon
Howdy Nan!
For information about Gaggia home espresso machines check out the
Gaggia User's Group link below. There you'll find Gaggia experts
who'll answer all your questions. Once there, click on Messages and
enter "pure or color" as search parameters.

Forget "user's group" etcetera, the answer to your question is simple.
Gaggia domestic machines are manufactured by Saeco, who now own the Gaggia
brand name. Saeco domestic machines are based around a small pressed
stainless steel boiler with an internal element. It's cheaper to build the
"new" machines with parts common to the whole range rather than outsouce the
production of cast aluminum boilers. Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.

[frijoli]

Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs
Forget "user's group" etcetera, the answer to your question is simple.
Gaggia domestic machines are manufactured by Saeco, who now own the Gaggia
brand name. Saeco domestic machines are based around a small pressed
stainless steel boiler with an internal element. It's cheaper to build the
"new" machines with parts common to the whole range rather than outsouce the
production of cast aluminum boilers. Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.

Thanks Alan. Nice simple answer!!

[shixx]

Post by frijoli

Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs
Forget "user's group" etcetera, the answer to your question is simple.
Gaggia domestic machines are manufactured by Saeco, who now own the Gaggia
brand name. Saeco domestic machines are based around a small pressed
stainless steel boiler with an internal element. It's cheaper to build the
"new" machines with parts common to the whole range rather than outsouce the
production of cast aluminum boilers. Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.

Thanks Alan. Nice simple answer!!

good explanation Alan.

but my answer was much more concise!

:-)

[Robert Harmon]

Post by shixx

Post by frijoli

Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs
Forget "user's group" etcetera, the answer to your question is simple.
Gaggia domestic machines are manufactured by Saeco, who now own the Gaggia
brand name. Saeco domestic machines are based around a small pressed
stainless steel boiler with an internal element. It's cheaper to build the
"new" machines with parts common to the whole range rather than outsouce the
production of cast aluminum boilers. Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.

Thanks Alan. Nice simple answer!!

good explanation Alan.
but my answer was much more concise!
:-)

“In labouring to be concise, I become obscure.” Horace

The new style Gaggia's (old style Saeco's) have become the butt of
many jokes among the Gaggia faithful. They're having reliability
issues, performance issues, and generally aren't built to the same
standards Gaggia has been known for. Thank God Gaggia is beginning to
see the light, since it looks like they're not expanding their line of
cheap s/s boiler machines into their higher-end lineup.

Tex

[l***@sbcglobal.net]

Performance should be unaffected, and you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.-
Alan

Should be....Might be. Really, the new entry level Gaggias are pretty
much untested so far.
There is one person over at the Gaggia users group who seems to have
been able to do some of the preferred mods and upgrades on one
(although I forget whether it was a Pure or a Color or a Dose). That
ability to add modifications is one concern about these newer models.

Another concern is that they have changed rather a lot of the bits and
parts that people are used to on their previous Gaggias. The brew
head itself seems to have some odd shims for holding the portafilter
in place, and there have been a few reports of these shims getting
easily dislodged/lost/broken. Also, the new brew heads have a
different format and require different gaskets.

So, support for new Gaggias from people who have owned older ones is a
bit harder to come by. Eventually enough people will have had them
and messed about with them to be able to give you/anyone more help if/
as/when you need it. Right now they are simply untested.

If I were you, I'd look to that deal at Costco.com for the $399.99
Classic. (I know, I know, I know, I've already mentioned it, but just
maybe Nan wasn't tuned in when I did, and maybe she will be
interested....)

[l***@sbcglobal.net]

On Mar 29, 12:02 am, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"

Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs

Post by Robert Harmon
Howdy Nan!
For information about Gaggia home espresso machines check out the
Gaggia User's Group link below. There you'll find Gaggia experts
who'll answer all your questions. Once there, click on Messages and
enter "pure or color" as search parameters.

Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.-
Alan

Should be....Might be. Really, the new entry level Gaggias are pretty
much untested so far.
There is one person over at the Gaggia users group who seems to have
been able to do some of the preferred mods and upgrades on one
(although I forget whether it was a Pure or a Color or a Dose). That
ability to add modifications is one concern about these newer models.

Another concern is that they have changed rather a lot of the bits and
parts that people are used to on their previous Gaggias. The brew
head itself seems to have some odd shims for holding the portafilter
in place, and there have been a few reports of these shims getting
easily dislodged/lost/broken. Also, the new brew heads have a
different format and require different gaskets.

So, support for new Gaggias from people who have owned older ones is a
bit harder to come by. Eventually enough people will have had them
and messed about with them to be able to give you/anyone more help if/
as/when you need it. Right now they are simply untested.

If I were you, I'd look to that deal at Costco.com for the $399.99
Classic. (I know, I know, I know, I've already mentioned it, but just
maybe Nan wasn't tuned in when I did, and maybe she will be
interested....)

[n***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 3:02 am, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"

Post by Coffee for Connoisseurs

Post by Robert Harmon
Howdy Nan!
For information about Gaggia home espresso machines check out the
Gaggia User's Group link below. There you'll find Gaggia experts
who'll answer all your questions. Once there, click on Messages and
enter "pure or color" as search parameters.

Forget "user's group" etcetera, the answer to your question is simple.
Gaggia domestic machines are manufactured by Saeco, who now own the Gaggia
brand name. Saeco domestic machines are based around a small pressed
stainless steel boiler with an internal element. It's cheaper to build the
"new" machines with parts common to the whole range rather than outsouce the
production of cast aluminum boilers. Performance should be unaffected, and
you've got a new "feature" for marketing. Simple as that.
--
Alan

Hmm, thanks for this.

You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

If so perhaps I'd best hang onto my faithful old Carezza pending
acquisition of sufficient dosh to upgrade to a better machine... there
must be a bank somewhere I could relieve of excess cash.

I have thought and thought about Silvia, but everyone says she is
unforgiving. I do love my Gaggia because, within a fairly loose range
of grinding and tamping variations, I still get a nicely balanced
crema-topped shot in 25 secs without ever having acquired a PhD in
baristology. (I'm a typical ADD dilettante, know a little about a lot
but not a lot about much.) It's entirely possible that "I don't know
what I'm missing" espresso-wise, but I don't have time in the a.m. to
start dumping bad shots.

Thanks to all who replied from
Nan in DC

[l***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element.  Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

Susan

[Tex]

Plus it's only 1100 watts compared to 1425 for the aluminum boilers. At 1100
watts it's still a lot more powerful than the woefully anemic Silvia.

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

Susan

[JimG]

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element.  Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.

Jim

[Tex]

Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try using
an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

[shixx]

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try using
a

snipped

tdh:
"Now, I'll burn down the whole alt.coffee house if I have
to, but I'll keep posting the truth about dave's shoddy workmanship
until the day they disband Usenet. I'll post the truth on eBay and
anywhere else I can, and eventually it'll bite into his business. . .
"


how sad and pathetic that t/d/h has decided to reprise his
campaign... . .

to be SO lonely, envious and resentful.

I'm just embarrassed for him.

Dave 877 286 2833

[Jack Denver]

Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.

Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside,  especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head.  I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design.  I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is  a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff.  Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years.  They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets.  If you get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements?  I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.

One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
standards. http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp

Tex

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Robert Harmon

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside,  especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head.  I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design.  I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is  a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff.  Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years.  They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets.  If you get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements?  I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
standards.http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

typo - Silvia boiler = ~$150

[Jack Denver]

IIRC, Silvia is made with lead free marine brass. In general, I think
people obsess way too much about "invisible killers" while they take
enormous risks every day, starting with getting into their cars, without
giving them a second thought - it's completely irrational. If you drive to
the supermarket to buy a case of bottled water (or to a shop to buy a
stainless boiler espresso machine), the risk of being killed on the way
there and back is thousands of times greater than the risk you have averted.
Generally speaking people grossly underestimate risks that they feel in
control of - I'm doing the driving/skiing/biking etc. so nothing can go
wrong.

Post by Robert Harmon

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top
(since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that
copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under
certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they
are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
standards.http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

typo - Silvia boiler = ~$150

[Craig Andrews]

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too {:-/) you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

[Robert Harmon]

Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?

Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to have the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too {:-/) you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

[Craig Andrews]

Rob, 3 posts down from your post I quoted here., I gave an (my)answer..
Craig.

Post by Robert Harmon
Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?
Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to
have
the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too {:-/) you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

[Craig Andrews]

Rare'n hens teeth too! {:-D {:-(
Craig.

Post by Craig Andrews
Rob, 3 posts down from your post I quoted here., I gave an (my)answer..
Craig.

Post by Robert Harmon
Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?
Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to
have
the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too {:-/) you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Craig Andrews
Rob, 3 posts down from your post I quoted here., I gave an (my)answer..
Craig.

Post by Robert Harmon
Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?
Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to
have
the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the art of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super conductive (not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element. Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
 http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too {:-/) you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

I like succinctness as much as the next person Craig, but a link to
your post would be appreciated.

Tex

[Craig Andrews]

Post by Craig Andrews
Rob, 3 posts down from your post I quoted here., I gave an (my)answer..
Craig.

Post by Robert Harmon
Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?
Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to
have
the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the
art
of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super
conductive
(not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element.
Am
I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too
{:-/)
you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

I like succinctness as much as the next person Craig, but a link to
your post would be appreciated.

Tex


It's in this THREAD Rob!..
Craig.

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Robert Harmon

Post by Craig Andrews
Rob, 3 posts down from your post I quoted here., I gave an (my)answer..
Craig.

Post by Robert Harmon
Where can I order one of those boilers Craig? And do you know why
Rancilio switched over to the welded-in elements?
Tex

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Jack Denver
Internal (immersion) heating elements are very common in electric boilers -
e.g. the hot water heater in everyone's basement. No matter how good the
heat conducting material, it's always going to be more efficient to
have
the
element surrounded by water than on the outside, especially on top (since
heat rises) and the design of single boiler machines usually precludes
putting the element on bottom (which is taken up by the group head. I
submit that the high wattage used by Gaggia is to make up for the
inefficiencies of an external element design. I agreee though that copper
(or marine brass as in the Rancilio is a superior material - under certain
water conditions, aluminum boilers can corrode rapidly.
Every design has its strengths and weaknesses - engineering is the
art
of
the tradeoff. Yes immersion coils can and do fail (especially if they are
run dry) but generally they last for many years. They can be viewed as
normal wear items, like the tires on a car or grouphead gaskets. If you
get
5 years out of a heating element and it costs you $100 to replace it, that's
$20/yr which is not too bad.

Post by Tex
Every time I use my Ruffoni copper cookware I wonder why no one's tried
external elements with copper boilers in espresso machines. Who'd try
using an internal heater for a stock pot? Copper is super
conductive
(not
superconductive) and you'd think a pair of 700 watt elements mounted
something like Gaggia does it would work well.
--
Tex

Post by JimG

Post by l***@sbcglobal.net

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hmm, thanks for this.
You say that the new stainless boiler has an internal element.
Am
I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the
element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to
corrosion
and/or scaling?

Exactly right.....
Good luck....

I wonder why no other manufacturer (at least none I am aware of) has
adopted the use of external heating elements? I can only conclude
that it requires the specific low mass / high conductivity properties
of aluminum to work right.
Jim

Except, the elements on the ever-popular Silvia are no longer
replaceable; you have to replace the entire boiler at a cost of ~$1150
for parts, to which you must add S&H and labor costs. It can quickly
add up to more than $250 to replace a burned out heating element.
One point seldom raised is lead leaching from copper & brass boilers.
ANSI/NSF Standard 61 covers items that come into contact with drinking
water, but I've seen no comments about espresso boilers meeting these
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp
Tex

Like I said on my other post, (that no one bothered to respond too
{:-/)
you
could get a boiler from a old Nacy, Audrey model., that way the heating
element is always replaceable!
Craig.

I like succinctness as much as the next person Craig, but a link to
your post would be appreciated.
Tex
It's in this THREAD Rob!..
Craig.

Thanks Craig, I missed it? So it looks like one would have to find an
abandoned old-model Silvia, Nancy or Audrey to get the boilers you
mention? Hardly seems cost effective, does it?

Why did Rancilio stop making the bolt-in elements? Were they leaking,
shorting too often, or what? Maybe they're just easier/cheaper to
produce than the ones your prefer?

Tex

[shixx]

aking the bolt-in elements? Were they leaking,

Post by Robert Harmon
shorting too often, or what? Maybe they're just easier/cheaper to
produce than the ones your prefer?
Tex

That happened about 5 years ago tdh.
I am surprised that you are not on top of that. after all to knock
something, it helps to know about it.

but not in your case.

love -- dave

[Craig Andrews]

Post by Robert Harmon
aking the bolt-in elements? Were they leaking,

Post by Robert Harmon
shorting too often, or what? Maybe they're just easier/cheaper to
produce than the ones your prefer?
Tex

That happened about 5 years ago tdh.
I am surprised that you are not on top of that. after all to knock
something, it helps to know about it.
but not in your case.
love -- dave

I remember reading reports of some leaking between the heating element inner
flange & the red silicone O-ring seals. I don't buy that though, more like
PLANNED obsolesence, & NO MONEY to be made that way..
Craig.

[shixx]

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by Robert Harmon
aking the bolt-in elements? Were they leaking,

Post by Robert Harmon
shorting too often, or what? Maybe they're just easier/cheaper to
produce than the ones your prefer?
Tex

That happened about 5 years ago tdh.
I am surprised that you are not on top of that.  after all to knock
something, it helps to know about it.
but not in your case.
love -- dave

I remember reading reports of some leaking between the heating element inner
flange & the red silicone O-ring seals. I don't buy that though, more like
PLANNED obsolesence, & NO MONEY to be made that way..
Craig.

Really! Well that is EXactly what happened to my first Silvia, Craig.

[Steve Ackman]

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

No, you are not wrong.

[Tex]

Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.

Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by Steve Ackman

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

No, you are not wrong.
--
??

[Craig Andrews]

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground
short in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to
repair if it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex

Yes the brazed in heating element. Unless of course if you have a spare 'old
style' around early 2000 & pre 2000 Silvia boiler. It was the old style that
was used on the Audrey, Nancy & few others that escape me @ the moment too,
but had a bolt in heating element.

Through my searching around & finally through Rancilio NA, I was able to get
the last remaining NOS New Old Stock old style bolt in heating element
boiler in NA on April 2007.
Like I've said on Coffeegeek, I'd NEVER get rid of or sell my May 2001
Rancilio Miss Silvia., I'm keeping her for life!, lol!! {;-)
Cheers!
Craig.

[n***@gmail.com]

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

 No, you are not wrong.
--
??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related. There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's. Here's what I found re boiling water in
aluminum, and the single biggest reason why I never use tap water in
my Gaggia:
"in 1987 a brief report in the prestigious scientific journal Nature
stated that, when
water boiled in aluminum pots was fluoridated, a much greater
concentration of
aluminum entered the water than when the water was unfluoridated.In
other words, it
was suggested that fluoridated water was leading to much higher
intakes of aluminum.
This was seen as significant because some scientists have linked
aluminum intake to
Alzheimer’s disease, which involves degeneration of brain connections
and is said to be
widespread especially among the elderly.
If this report had been replicated and vindicated and the aluminum-
Alzheimer’s
connection shown more conclusively, it might have brought a new
constituency into the
fluoridation debate, that of doctors and citizens concerned about
Alzheimer’s. The solution
would not necessarily have meant ending fluoridation, since it is also
possible to replace
aluminum pans."

Anyway - that issue is the source of my interest in steel or brass
boilers.

Best,
Nan

[Robert Harmon]

Post by n***@gmail.com
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related.  There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's...
Nan

You need to look at more recent studies:
http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99

But if it concerns you that much, there are other machines whose
boilers are made with copper, stainless steel, brass, etc.

Tex

[shixx]

Post by n***@gmail.com
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related.  There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's...
Nan

You need to look at more recent studies:http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99
But if it concerns you that much, there are other machines whose
boilers are made with copper, stainless steel, brass, etc.
Tex

You are missing your preferred links tdh

and what relationship do YOU have with Saeco USA?

any?

at all?

LOL

dave

[Robert Harmon]

Post by shixx

Post by n***@gmail.com
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related.  There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's...
Nan

You need to look at more recent studies:http://alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99
But if it concerns you that much, there are other machines whose
boilers are made with copper, stainless steel, brass, etc.
Tex

You are missing your preferred links tdh
and what relationship do YOU have with Saeco USA?
any?
at all?
LOL
dave

Aw shuxx shixx, I'd have sworn I put our favorite link in there. Here
it is again, just for you Bub.

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

[shixx]

Post by Robert Harmon

Post by shixx

Post by Robert Harmon

Post by n***@gmail.com
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related.  There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's...
Nan

But if it concerns you that much, there are other machines whose
boilers are made with copper, stainless steel, brass, etc.
Tex

You are missing your preferred links tdh
and what relationship do YOU have with Saeco USA?
any?
at all?
LOL
dave

Aw shuxx shixx, I'd have sworn I put our favorite link in there. Here
it is again, just for you Bub.
Tex

" Now, I'll burn down the whole alt.coffee house if I have
to, but I'll keep posting the truth about dave's shoddy workmanship
until the day they disband Usenet. I'll post the truth on eBay and
anywhere else I can, and eventually it'll bite into his
business. . . . "


how sad and pathetic that T/D/H/M/E has decided to reprise his
campaign... . .

to be SO lonely, so envious and resentful.

I'm just embarrassed for him.
http://reviews.ebay.com/Precision-Espresso-temperature-Where-How-to-get-it_W0QQugidZ10000000011328193

Dave 877 286 2833

[Jack Denver]

The best of your knowledge is not very good. You are maybe 20 yrs. behind on
this - the early studies have been debunked. Correlation and causation are 2
different things. Aluminum does not accumulate in the brains of healthy
people. Whatever disease mechanism destroys brains of Alzheimer's victims
also allows aluminum to get thru - so the presence of aluminum in their
brains is a symptom, not a cause. Aluminum is one of the most plentiful
element in the earth's crust and you get plenty of it in your diet anyway,
not to mention in antacids, tea, adsorbed from deodorants, etc. It does not
accumulate in the brains of healthly people. It is generally excreted by the
kidneys. If it accumulates anywhere, it is generally in your bones and
appears to do no harm except in extreme cases of kidney failure where the
kidneys no longer excrete aluminum as they should.


<***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:04a32b2a-30b0-4280-956e-***@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related. There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's.

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Jack Denver
The best of your knowledge is not very good. You are maybe 20 yrs. behind on
this - the early studies have been debunked. Correlation and causation are 2
different things. Aluminum does not accumulate in the brains of healthy
people. Whatever disease mechanism destroys brains of Alzheimer's victims
also allows aluminum to get thru - so the presence of aluminum  in their
brains is a symptom, not a cause.   Aluminum is one of the most plentiful
element in the earth's crust and you get plenty of it in your diet anyway,
not to mention in antacids, tea, adsorbed from deodorants, etc.  It does not
accumulate in the brains of healthly people. It is generally excreted by the
kidneys.  If it accumulates anywhere, it is generally in your bones and
appears to do no harm  except in extreme cases of kidney failure where the
kidneys no longer excrete aluminum as they should.
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related.  There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's.

I get a kick out of folks quoting the old-wives tales about aluminum
too Jack. But what about copper & brass leaching lead? Do we need to
start encouraging folks to buy lead-testing kits to check their
Silvia's & Lelit's, just to be on the safe side?

Tex

[Jack Denver]

I responded in another thread - AFAIK, the Silvias are made with lead free
marine brass. Dunno about the Lelit. Wouldn't hurt to get a lead test kit
but I highly doubt it would reveal anything. You get lots more lead from
old plumbing, drinking in crystal glasses, etc. Lead is a bigger risk for
kids with growing brains and most children don't drink espresso (because of
another wive's tale - the history of that one is that it was apparently a
very successful viral marketing campaign by the Coca Cola Co.)

Post by Jack Denver
The best of your knowledge is not very good. You are maybe 20 yrs. behind on
this - the early studies have been debunked. Correlation and causation are 2
different things. Aluminum does not accumulate in the brains of healthy
people. Whatever disease mechanism destroys brains of Alzheimer's victims
also allows aluminum to get thru - so the presence of aluminum in their
brains is a symptom, not a cause. Aluminum is one of the most plentiful
element in the earth's crust and you get plenty of it in your diet anyway,
not to mention in antacids, tea, adsorbed from deodorants, etc. It does
not
accumulate in the brains of healthly people. It is generally excreted by the
kidneys. If it accumulates anywhere, it is generally in your bones and
appears to do no harm except in extreme cases of kidney failure where the
kidneys no longer excrete aluminum as they should.
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related. There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's.

I get a kick out of folks quoting the old-wives tales about aluminum
too Jack. But what about copper & brass leaching lead? Do we need to
start encouraging folks to buy lead-testing kits to check their
Silvia's & Lelit's, just to be on the safe side?

Tex

[Robert Harmon]

Post by Jack Denver
I responded in another thread - AFAIK, the Silvias are made with lead free
marine brass. Dunno about the Lelit. Wouldn't hurt to get a lead test kit
but I highly doubt it would reveal anything.  You get lots more lead from
old plumbing, drinking in crystal glasses, etc. Lead is a bigger risk for
kids with growing brains and most children don't drink espresso (because of
another wive's tale - the history of that one is  that it was apparently a
very successful viral marketing campaign by the Coca Cola Co.)

Post by Jack Denver
The best of your knowledge is not very good. You are maybe 20 yrs. behind on
this - the early studies have been debunked. Correlation and causation are 2
different things. Aluminum does not accumulate in the brains of healthy
people. Whatever disease mechanism destroys brains of Alzheimer's victims
also allows aluminum to get thru - so the presence of aluminum in their
brains is a symptom, not a cause. Aluminum is one of the most plentiful
element in the earth's crust and you get plenty of it in your diet anyway,
not to mention in antacids, tea, adsorbed from deodorants, etc. It does
not
accumulate in the brains of healthly people. It is generally excreted by the
kidneys. If it accumulates anywhere, it is generally in your bones and
appears to do no harm except in extreme cases of kidney failure where the
kidneys no longer excrete aluminum as they should.
I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related. There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's.

I get a kick out of folks quoting the old-wives tales about aluminum
too Jack. But what about copper & brass leaching lead? Do we need to
start encouraging folks to buy lead-testing kits to check their
Silvia's & Lelit's, just to be on the safe side?
Tex

And what about the thousands (millions?) of commercial espresso
machines that use copper boilers & heat exchangers? I see kids
stopping off for a cap or latte at the local coffee shop before
heading to school. Are they safe - are they making rational risk
assessments of the dangers of lead?

Tex

[Jack Denver]

Copper boilers contain no lead at all, unless they are brazed with lead
bearing solder. The concern (if there is anything to be concerned about at
all) is BRASS, which sometimes contains lead. Brass boilers are more
typical in small single boiler machines because brass lends itself to
casting and it is not practical to cast a large HX boiler. Copper is more
easily worked in sheets and large HX boilers are typically built that way.
Of course most of the domestic plumbing in the US is copper so if lead were
a problem then you'd get a lot more of it from your faucet every day than
from the occassional cup of coffee.

There are some espresso boilers and groups that are nickel plated and this
has lead to some concern -

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/EU-Coffee-Machines-Withdrawn-After-Tests-Showed-High-Levels-Of-Nickel-And-Lead/Article/200812115172392?lpos=World_News_Second_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15172392_EU_Coffee_Machines_Withdrawn_After_Tests_Showed_High_Levels_Of_Nickel_And_Lead

I suspect there was some aggravating factor - an unusual water condition
such as low pH, failure to follow normal maintenance procedures, a low
turnover that allowed water to sit too long or somesuch.

"Robert Harmon" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:aaa5903a-dc99-4a20-b880-***@p6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

And what about the thousands (millions?) of commercial espresso
machines that use copper boilers & heat exchangers? I see kids
stopping off for a cap or latte at the local coffee shop before
heading to school. Are they safe - are they making rational risk
assessments of the dangers of lead?

Tex

[n***@gmail.com]

Post by n***@gmail.com

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

 No, you are not wrong.
--
??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess my biggest reason for considering switching away from the
aluminum boiler is health-related. There is fairly solid evidence, to
the best of my knowledge, linking aluminum consumption (lifetime
accretion) with Alzheimer's. Here's what I found re boiling water in
aluminum, and the single biggest reason why I never use tap water in
"in 1987 a brief report in the prestigious scientific journal Nature
stated that, when
water boiled in aluminum pots was fluoridated, a much greater
concentration of
aluminum entered the water than when the water was unfluoridated.In
other words, it
was suggested that fluoridated water was leading to much higher
intakes of aluminum.
This was seen as significant because some scientists have linked
aluminum intake to
Alzheimer’s disease, which involves degeneration of brain connections
and is said to be
widespread especially among the elderly.
If this report had been replicated and vindicated and the aluminum-
Alzheimer’s
connection shown more conclusively, it might have brought a new
constituency into the
fluoridation debate, that of doctors and citizens concerned about
Alzheimer’s. The solution
would not necessarily have meant ending fluoridation, since it is also
possible to replace
aluminum pans."
Anyway - that issue is the source of my interest in steel or brass
boilers.
Best,
Nan

I am totally with you Nan! But I don't understand all of the writing on this page, I am new to Gaggia. If I understand correctly Gaggia still today 2017 uses aluminum boilers, but are being phased out? Does that mean in the future we might see steel boilers? I am giving up my Nespresso machine because of the pods and alu and I do not want aluminum in my coffee. Thank you for posting this, Nicki

[shixx]

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

BUT sadly the boiler being made of AL CORRODES!
WRT to aluminum boilers on gaggia -- they are being phased out, tdh
too much corrosion, too much flaking of AL oxides and other crud in
the output, resulitng in cloggage.

Saeco is phasing in the internal >1KW heater (bolt in) in combo w/ the
stamped SS boilers which they have used for at least 10 years.

BTW I've NEVER seen corrosion causing leakage in a saeco SS boiler.

[FERRANTE]

Post by shixx

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

BUT sadly the boiler being made of AL CORRODES!
WRT to aluminum boilers on gaggia -- they are being phased out, tdh
too much corrosion, too much flaking of AL oxides and other crud in
the output, resulitng in cloggage.
Saeco is phasing in the internal >1KW heater (bolt in) in combo w/ the
stamped SS boilers which they have used for at least 10 years.
BTW I've NEVER seen corrosion causing leakage in a saeco SS boiler.

Who cares??

[shixx]

Post by FERRANTE

Post by shixx

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

BUT sadly the boiler being made of AL CORRODES!
WRT to aluminum boilers on gaggia -- they are being phased out, tdh
too much corrosion, too much flaking of AL oxides and other crud in
the output, resulitng in cloggage.
Saeco is phasing in the internal >1KW heater (bolt in) in combo w/ the
stamped SS boilers which they have used for at least 10 years.
BTW I've NEVER seen corrosion causing leakage in a saeco SS boiler.

Who cares??

evidently tdh does.

let's hear more about single serve coffee!! Yeah!

[FERRANTE]

Post by shixx

Post by FERRANTE

Post by shixx

Post by Tex
Probably the most common malfunction for a Rancilio Silvia is a ground short
in the heating element; and it costs ~$150 plus labor and S&H to repair if
it's out of warranty.
Who can remember the last time a Gaggia had a ground short?
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by n***@gmail.com
Am I
wrong in understanding the old Gaggia aluminum boiler has the element
located on the outside of the boiler - thus less exposed to corrosion
and/or scaling?

BUT sadly the boiler being made of AL CORRODES!
WRT to aluminum boilers on gaggia -- they are being phased out, tdh
too much corrosion, too much flaking of AL oxides and other crud in
the output, resulitng in cloggage.
Saeco is phasing in the internal >1KW heater (bolt in) in combo w/ the
stamped SS boilers which they have used for at least 10 years.
BTW I've NEVER seen corrosion causing leakage in a saeco SS boiler.

Who cares??

evidently tdh does.
let's hear more about single serve coffee!! Yeah!

Believe me, we will.

Mark

[shixx]

Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers

regards

dave

[Robert Harmon]

 Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers
regards
dave

Aw shuxx Bub, the Gaggia Espresso has the s/s boilers. The thin ice
your ignorance is riding on is getting thinner & thinner. Why don't
you stick to discussing something you actually know something about?
It would sure be a LOT quieter around here that way.

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

[Jack Denver]

When did they switch? It used to be that the Espresso had the standard
Gaggia alu. boiler found on the Classic, Baby, etc., just no 3 way solenoid.

The idea of a stainless boiler is basically good (no corrosion - they are
not used more commercially because stainless is hard to form vs. soft
copper - you could make a copper boiler in your garage) but the Saeco
/Gaggia implementation leaves something to be desired - the boiler is about
the size of a hockey puck, barely recognizable as a "boiler". I dunno why
they couldn't have made the thing a little bigger.

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers
regards
dave

Aw shuxx Bub, the Gaggia Espresso has the s/s boilers. The thin ice
your ignorance is riding on is getting thinner & thinner. Why don't
you stick to discussing something you actually know something about?
It would sure be a LOT quieter around here that way.

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

[Robert Harmon]

When did they switch?  It used to be that the Espresso had the standard
Gaggia alu. boiler found on the Classic, Baby, etc., just no 3 way solenoid.
The idea of a stainless boiler is basically good  (no corrosion - they are
not used more commercially because stainless is hard to form vs. soft
copper - you could make a copper boiler in your garage) but the Saeco
/Gaggia implementation leaves something to be desired - the boiler is about
the size of a hockey puck, barely recognizable as a "boiler".  I dunno why
they couldn't have made the thing a little bigger.

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers
regards
dave

Aw shuxx Bub, the Gaggia Espresso has the s/s boilers. The thin ice
your ignorance is riding on is getting thinner & thinner. Why don't
you stick to discussing something you actually know something about?
It would sure be a LOT quieter around here that way.
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

The new Gaggia Espresso models (Dose, Color & Pure) have s/s boilers:
http://tinyurl.com/dj6ufe

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-
about-PID-s

[Jack Denver]

Isn't there still a model called the "Gaggia Espresso", period?

http://www.espressopros.com/index.php?file=product_details&prod_id=265

This one. $200 and the same alu. boiler as always (same as Classic, just no
3 way). It never seemed to me that a 3 way was worth another $200.

When did they switch? It used to be that the Espresso had the standard
Gaggia alu. boiler found on the Classic, Baby, etc., just no 3 way solenoid.
The idea of a stainless boiler is basically good (no corrosion - they are
not used more commercially because stainless is hard to form vs. soft
copper - you could make a copper boiler in your garage) but the Saeco
/Gaggia implementation leaves something to be desired - the boiler is about
the size of a hockey puck, barely recognizable as a "boiler". I dunno why
they couldn't have made the thing a little bigger.

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers
regards
dave

Aw shuxx Bub, the Gaggia Espresso has the s/s boilers. The thin ice
your ignorance is riding on is getting thinner & thinner. Why don't
you stick to discussing something you actually know something about?
It would sure be a LOT quieter around here that way.
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really
sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

The new Gaggia Espresso models (Dose, Color & Pure) have s/s boilers:
http://tinyurl.com/dj6ufe

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-
about-PID-s

[Tex]

Just older versions - all new Espresso models have the s/s boilers. The
models with aluminum boilers - Classic, Baby & Evolution.

Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:
http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

Post by Jack Denver
Isn't there still a model called the "Gaggia Espresso", period?
http://www.espressopros.com/index.php?file=product_details&prod_id=265
This one. $200 and the same alu. boiler as always (same as Classic, just
no 3 way). It never seemed to me that a 3 way was worth another $200.

When did they switch? It used to be that the Espresso had the standard
Gaggia alu. boiler found on the Classic, Baby, etc., just no 3 way solenoid.
The idea of a stainless boiler is basically good (no corrosion - they are
not used more commercially because stainless is hard to form vs. soft
copper - you could make a copper boiler in your garage) but the Saeco
/Gaggia implementation leaves something to be desired - the boiler is about
the size of a hockey puck, barely recognizable as a "boiler". I dunno why
they couldn't have made the thing a little bigger.

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds

Post by n***@yahoo.com
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

because they a dumping the machines with the old aluminum boilers
regards
dave

Aw shuxx Bub, the Gaggia Espresso has the s/s boilers. The thin ice
your ignorance is riding on is getting thinner & thinner. Why don't
you stick to discussing something you actually know something about?
It would sure be a LOT quieter around here that way.
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really
sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-about-PID-s

http://tinyurl.com/dj6ufe
Tex
--
Find out what Hi Tech Espresso really sells:http://tinyurl.com/truth-
about-PID-s

[w***@gmail.com]

Post by n***@yahoo.com
Hi all,
Haven't posted on here in years...
We've been pretty happy with our home setup - Gaggia Carezza with a
Rocky grinder and good locally roasted beans. But the Carezza's a
couple of years old and I see WLL has the Espresso Color on sale. For
a mere $200 I can upgrade to a stainless steel boiler.
I have hunted online in vain for some solid unbiased information on
the aluminum vs. steel boiler in Gaggia. Anyone have experience or
thoughts they'd like to share? Anyone own the Espresso Color and hate
it? We've been satisfied with the results from the Carezza ever since
we invested in the Rocky grinder, so while I'm forever tempted to blow
a wad on a Silvia, I remind myself that I'm really not a high-end
consumer prepared to start learning what PID means...
I'd be grateful, as ever, for the insights of this group. I know
aluminum boilers have a tendency to corrode but am wondering how
Gaggia can offer me the stainless boiler at the same price point as
the Carezza. Where's the catch? (My mom taught me that if it sounds
too good to be true, it is.) Why are they unloading the Espresso at
half price?
THanks!
Nan

Good question. I had my color apart today. My main machine is a Baby Twin and I love it! Gaggia is well know for it's massive group heads made of chrome plated brass. They transfer heat to the portafilter very efficiently which is verrrrry important if a good crema is wanted.

The "Color" however does not transfer heat to the portafilter near as well nor as fast. This is because the locking lip for the portafilter has plastic "rails" glued to the boiler base. Otherwise referred to as:
(11005079 FILTERH.RETAINING RING SS.BOILER NEWGEN)

So, are in wanting to move to SS from Aluminum you will be making a compromise. And it may be an unwanted compromise. Ask around.