Dual set points PID for Silvia

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

David F

2003-12-19 08:08:45 UTC

Ok, after so many posts re PID, I hate to ask.
But where is more info available for this approach? Randy did it for
better steam, which makes sense. But the web pages with instructions
that I have found (and part numbers) seem to be just for the brew temp.
Or is it really not worth bothering with dual set points. Btw, I'm
thinking of the internal approach like Pepe's.
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://www.flash.net/~jfmurphy/pidsilvia/
Thanks,
David F.

Chris Schmelzer

2003-12-19 16:30:51 UTC

Permalink

Post by David F
Ok, after so many posts re PID, I hate to ask.
But where is more info available for this approach? Randy did it for
better steam, which makes sense. But the web pages with instructions
that I have found (and part numbers) seem to be just for the brew temp.
Or is it really not worth bothering with dual set points. Btw, I'm
thinking of the internal approach like Pepe's.
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://www.flash.net/~jfmurphy/pidsilvia/
Thanks,
David F.

I've just cranked mine up a couple of times to steam (just manually turn
the temp up on the controller) and really haven't found that it improved
things all that much..

jlb

2003-12-19 17:09:04 UTC

Permalink

David,

The "PID" controller has an "output" that drives the "solid state relay"
that drives the heater for the boiler.
The thermocouple senses the temperature where it is mounted and sends this
information to the controller. the micro-processor inside the controller has
an "algorithim" that calculates the P (Proportional), I (Integral), D
(Derivative) based on tuning (automatic OR manual or a combination of both);
the "Fuji" control also uses "fuzzy logic" in the "algorithim" to allow some
variables for "better" control of process. Based on this calculation the
calculation "tells" the control to output (to the Solid State Relay);this is
a "cycle" and multiple "ON" and "OFFS" are "cycles". the goal is to keep the
boiler at the "desired" temperature. (Setpoint)
See http://www.nphheaters.com/technical/din_letter.htm for a primer on
temperature control.
Am guessing that you might (??) be referrring to "dual ALARMS" rather than
setpoints; alarms simply provide another output (actually (2) with a dual AL
unit) from the controller that can be programmed to be either "high" or
"low" and you could have actually a "high, high" or "low, low", these
alarms are often used to simply shut somehing down when the temperature
reaches the programmend ALARM point.
These controls were designed for and are used in industrial processes and
machines (example;plastic machine that "mold" a plastic part).
Many people seem to have adapted control for "Espresso" machines,
particularly Silvia's.

I have not done a "modification", but have engineered solutions for 20 years
for industrial "control" apps.

Am also a "CoffeeGeek", so have enjoyed reading the posts and have been
intrigued with the "mods".

Hope this helps!

Jeff B.

unknown

2003-12-19 18:03:15 UTC

Permalink

Both are available on some PIDs- dual alarms as well as dual set
points. On mine, for the second set point, there are a pair of
terminals that are designated to be hooked to an external SPST switch.
When the switch is closed it selects the second set point,
pre-programmed by the user. It even has an autotune that sets a second
set of P, I, and D values for it. I set mine up so that turning on the
steam switch on Silvia selects the second set point which I set at
285f.

Post by jlb
David,
The "PID" controller has an "output" that drives the "solid state relay"
that drives the heater for the boiler.
The thermocouple senses the temperature where it is mounted and sends this
information to the controller. the micro-processor inside the controller has
an "algorithim" that calculates the P (Proportional), I (Integral), D
(Derivative) based on tuning (automatic OR manual or a combination of both);
the "Fuji" control also uses "fuzzy logic" in the "algorithim" to allow some
variables for "better" control of process. Based on this calculation the
calculation "tells" the control to output (to the Solid State Relay);this is
a "cycle" and multiple "ON" and "OFFS" are "cycles". the goal is to keep the
boiler at the "desired" temperature. (Setpoint)
See http://www.nphheaters.com/technical/din_letter.htm for a primer on
temperature control.
Am guessing that you might (??) be referrring to "dual ALARMS" rather than
setpoints; alarms simply provide another output (actually (2) with a dual AL
unit) from the controller that can be programmed to be either "high" or
"low" and you could have actually a "high, high" or "low, low", these
alarms are often used to simply shut somehing down when the temperature
reaches the programmend ALARM point.
These controls were designed for and are used in industrial processes and
machines (example;plastic machine that "mold" a plastic part).
Many people seem to have adapted control for "Espresso" machines,
particularly Silvia's.
I have not done a "modification", but have engineered solutions for 20 years
for industrial "control" apps.
Am also a "CoffeeGeek", so have enjoyed reading the posts and have been
intrigued with the "mods".
Hope this helps!
Jeff B.

Randy "This advertising space available" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

David F

2003-12-19 20:35:19 UTC

Permalink

Nope, I meant dual setpoints. The second one is to control the temp for
steaming milk. That's what Randy Glass did, but I think he stumbled
across a PID controller at a great price that had dual setpoints. He
didn't start out looking for one. But now I'm wondering if the 2nd one,
just to increase the temp for steaming would be all that useful.

Since you work with this stuff, perhaps you can help us with regarding
the two conrollers below. It seems that the PXR3 is a new and improved
unit over the PXV3 with more features. Seems to have bigger LCD display,
same size (height, width, depth), 12-16V output to SSR instead of 5V.

TTI Global site says, "The controller has all the standard features that
were available in the PXV3 controller, and more. In addition to
auto-tuning and fuzzy control, it now comes with self-tuning - an
innovation in the control field. It automatically retunes the controller
under certain conditions, without the need to revert to auto-tuning."

Fuji Electric PXR3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXR3
Fuji Electric PXV3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXV3

Do you see any reason to buy one over the other?

David F.

controller has

Post by jlb
an "algorithim" that calculates the P (Proportional), I (Integral), D
(Derivative) based on tuning (automatic OR manual or a combination of both);
the "Fuji" control also uses "fuzzy logic" in the "algorithim" to allow some
variables for "better" control of process. Based on this calculation the
calculation "tells" the control to output (to the Solid State

Relay);this is

Post by jlb
a "cycle" and multiple "ON" and "OFFS" are "cycles". the goal is to keep the
boiler at the "desired" temperature. (Setpoint)
See http://www.nphheaters.com/technical/din_letter.htm for a primer on
temperature control.
Am guessing that you might (??) be referrring to "dual ALARMS" rather than
setpoints; alarms simply provide another output (actually (2) with a dual AL
unit) from the controller that can be programmed to be either "high" or
"low" and you could have actually a "high, high" or "low, low", these
alarms are often used to simply shut somehing down when the

temperature

Post by jlb
reaches the programmend ALARM point.
These controls were designed for and are used in industrial processes and
machines (example;plastic machine that "mold" a plastic part).
Many people seem to have adapted control for "Espresso" machines,
particularly Silvia's.
I have not done a "modification", but have engineered solutions for 20 years
for industrial "control" apps.
Am also a "CoffeeGeek", so have enjoyed reading the posts and have been
intrigued with the "mods".
Hope this helps!
Jeff B.

unknown

2003-12-19 21:05:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by David F
TTI Global site says, "The controller has all the standard features that
were available in the PXV3 controller, and more. In addition to
auto-tuning and fuzzy control, it now comes with self-tuning - an
innovation in the control field. It automatically retunes the controller
under certain conditions, without the need to revert to auto-tuning."
Fuji Electric PXR3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXR3
Fuji Electric PXV3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXV3
Do you see any reason to buy one over the other?

It depends on what the "other conditions" are. I would call them. I
find with mine that it seems to drift out of tune once in a while and
I need to re-tune it. Every once in a while when I finish the first
pull of the day the PID is slow to react and get back to my tuned set
point. Other times it is quite fast. if it could take care of itself
in this respect, then it would be cool... or hot.. ? If nothing else,
they are the same price, no? I would get the PXR3 just for the larger
read out.

Randy "needing a bit of an auto tune himself" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Andy Schecter

2003-12-20 03:50:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by David F
Fuji Electric PXR3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXR3
Fuji Electric PXV3 http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXV3
Do you see any reason to buy one over the other?

Get the PXR3 for the larger display. For our application, the self-tuning
feature isn't really going to make a difference one way or the other.

--
-Andy S.

unknown

2003-12-19 17:10:17 UTC

Permalink

No, I didn't get the PID for better steam, actually.... I choose to
install a PID to gain control over the brew temp. It just so happened
that the PID I received has dual set points, and so I used that
feature. The steaming set point is OK, but no big deal. It may help
steam recovery times a bit, but I never even bothered testing the
difference, so can't comment on whether it is worthwhile or not. It is
the brew temp control where the benefit lies. And benefit it certainly
is.

If you get a PID with dual setpoints, then go ahead and use them- it's
fun. You can even select the second setpoint for a different brew temp
to A/B test, or for a different blend or roast. Otherwise, don't worry
about it.

Randy "This advertising space available" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Craig Andrews

2003-12-19 20:03:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by unknown
No, I didn't get the PID for better steam, actually.... I choose to
install a PID to gain control over the brew temp. It just so happened
that the PID I received has dual set points, and so I used that
feature. The steaming set point is OK, but no big deal. It may help
steam recovery times a bit, but I never even bothered testing the
difference, so can't comment on whether it is worthwhile or not. It is
the brew temp control where the benefit lies. And benefit it certainly
is.
If you get a PID with dual setpoints, then go ahead and use them- it's
fun. You can even select the second setpoint for a different brew temp
to A/B test, or for a different blend or roast. Otherwise, don't worry
about it.

Randy "This advertising space available" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Hi Randy, I've seen it mentioned before by someone else, but what
controller are you using with the dual setpoints? Is it the
http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXR3 or do you use the older
http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product%2Easp?Param1=PXV3 ?
Thanks,
Craig.

unknown

2003-12-19 20:26:02 UTC

Permalink

Post by Craig Andrews
Hi Randy, I've seen it mentioned before by someone else, but what
controller are you using with the dual setpoints? Is it the
http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.asp?Param1=PXR3 or do you use the older
http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product%2Easp?Param1=PXV3 ?
Thanks,
Craig.

The PID I got was a special deal from another Altie. It is a Fenwal
who is no longer in business. I think he got a few of them on E-Bay at
a good price. The Fuji is a great way to go.

The PXR3 is interesting with its ramp/soak function. As I understand
it, you can program it to set temps over a range and time. With that
it can be used to control an electric roaster.. Oooo! You could set it
up in a box with a socket on the back so that it could be unplugged
from the espresso machine and plugged into the roaster.... Ya, I got
it bad!

"My name is Randy and I am a coffee-techno-junkie."

"Hello, Randy!"

Phewww.. Step one done....

Randy "what was step two, again?" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

David F

2003-12-19 20:25:27 UTC

Permalink

The Fuji Electric PXR3 can be purchased with dual setpoints, but it
costs $35 more for it. Then I presume that another SSR is also needed to
replace the steam solenoid circuit segment, which costs another $26. So
that is $60 to better control steam temp. Doesn't seem worth it.
David F.

Randy "This advertising space available" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

unknown

2003-12-19 21:08:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by David F
The Fuji Electric PXR3 can be purchased with dual setpoints, but it
costs $35 more for it. Then I presume that another SSR is also needed to
replace the steam solenoid circuit segment, which costs another $26. So
that is $60 to better control steam temp. Doesn't seem worth it.
David F.

No, it shouldn't need the second SSR. Unless it is actually a
dual-circuit unit (and for that price I doubt it). I think it will
control the one device to two set points through the same SSR and
thgermocouple. For the $35 I would have to think about it if I were
getting it. The read out should still show you the boiler temp, so
using that you could temp surf the boiler for best steaming anyway.

Randy "needing a bit of an auto tune himself" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Craig Andrews

2003-12-19 21:35:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by unknown

No, it shouldn't need the second SSR. Unless it is actually a
dual-circuit unit (and for that price I doubt it). I think it will
control the one device to two set points through the same SSR and
thgermocouple. For the $35 I would have to think about it if I were
getting it. The read out should still show you the boiler temp, so
using that you could temp surf the boiler for best steaming anyway.
Randy "needing a bit of an auto tune himself" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

This is exactly what I want to do., have dual set points. One for the
brew temp, & change this for different roasts/blends, & to have a higher
set point than my 140ºC steam button stat. I have a 110ºC brew stat. I
think it was/is Greg Scarce that has & said he uses a 165ºC safety term
in place of the steam therm.
Man, talk about steam power!!
Houston we have a go!!! Hehhe {:-D
Craig.

Craig Andrews

2003-12-19 21:40:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by Craig Andrews

Post by unknown

Post by David F
The Fuji Electric PXR3 can be purchased with dual setpoints, but it
costs $35 more for it. Then I presume that another SSR is also

needed

Post by Craig Andrews
to

Post by unknown

Post by David F
replace the steam solenoid circuit segment, which costs another

$26.

Post by Craig Andrews
So

Post by unknown

Post by David F
that is $60 to better control steam temp. Doesn't seem worth it.
David F.

No, it shouldn't need the second SSR. Unless it is actually a
dual-circuit unit (and for that price I doubt it). I think it will
control the one device to two set points through the same SSR and
thgermocouple. For the $35 I would have to think about it if I were
getting it. The read out should still show you the boiler temp, so
using that you could temp surf the boiler for best steaming anyway.
Randy "needing a bit of an auto tune himself" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Sorry, left this out.., and if not dual display, just toggle between
brew & steam temps.
Craig.

unknown

2003-12-19 22:40:14 UTC

Permalink

Post by Craig Andrews
This is exactly what I want to do., have dual set points. One for the
brew temp, & change this for different roasts/blends, & to have a higher
set point than my 140ºC steam button stat. I have a 110ºC brew stat. I
think it was/is Greg Scarce that has & said he uses a 165ºC safety term
in place of the steam therm.

My brew temp is currently set at 224f(107c) and my steam temp is set
to 285f(141c) and I find these settings work quite well for me. I am
not sure how much steaming performance is enhanced, but recovery times
seem to be improved.

Randy "it's getting to look a lot like espresso!" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
reply to: frcn at quiknet dot com

Matt Smith

2003-12-20 20:17:47 UTC

Permalink

Right so read all that and have a question or two:

We have our single setpoint controller - brew the perfect shot and then flip
the steam switch. You've then bypassed the SSR and are just using the steam
switch to turn the boiler heater on. As the temperature is above the Set
Value on the PID it does nothing at this point?. And you stand there and
watch the Process Value shoot up, you start steaming at your preferred temp,
eventually the original Steam Thermostat on Sylvia kicks in and turns the
heater off again.

The next thought that occurs to me from Jeff B's post, is there some way to
use the Alarm(s). Could you remove the steam T stat and use the alarm in
some way to shut off at the desired temp? Or is that no good because all it
can shut off is the SSR, and you're manually kicking the heater with the
steam switch, so there isn't anything it can shut off?. How do the alarms
work please.....?

Matt "Please Santa bring me a Fuji with DI" Smith

unknown

2003-12-20 22:46:18 UTC

Permalink

Post by Matt Smith
We have our single setpoint controller - brew the perfect shot and then flip
the steam switch. You've then bypassed the SSR and are just using the steam
switch to turn the boiler heater on. As the temperature is above the Set
Value on the PID it does nothing at this point?.

That should be correct. The entire PID/Thermocouple/SSR set up is only
to replace the original brew thermostat. If all else is left
undisturbed, the rest of the machine will function normally.

Post by Matt Smith
And you stand there and
watch the Process Value shoot up, you start steaming at your preferred temp,
eventually the original Steam Thermostat on Sylvia kicks in and turns the
heater off again.

Yes..

Post by Matt Smith
The next thought that occurs to me from Jeff B's post, is there some way to
use the Alarm(s). Could you remove the steam T stat and use the alarm in
some way to shut off at the desired temp? Or is that no good because all it
can shut off is the SSR, and you're manually kicking the heater with the
steam switch, so there isn't anything it can shut off?.

The second one.. Once Silvia is set to use the steam T stat the higher
value of that T stat will over rule the brew setting on the PID. Just
like when you used it before. if you think of the entire PID circuit
as the original brew thermostat that is now adjustable, it becomes a
lot easier to understand.

Post by Matt Smith
How do the alarms
work please.....?

They are just circuits that can be set with a user specified value and
when that value is reached the alarm goes off. It does nothing else.

Post by Matt Smith
Matt "Please Santa bring me a Fuji with DI" Smith

Randy "All I want for Christmas is my P I D, my P I D..." G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html

Matt Smith

2003-12-21 09:09:01 UTC

Permalink

<Randy G.> wrote in message

Post by unknown
The entire PID/Thermocouple/SSR set up is only
to replace the original brew thermostat. If all else is left
undisturbed, the rest of the machine will function normally.
Once Silvia is set to use the steam T stat the higher
value of that T stat will over rule the brew setting on the PID. Just
like when you used it before. if you think of the entire PID circuit
as the original brew thermostat that is now adjustable, it becomes a
lot easier to understand.

Post by Matt Smith
How do the alarms
work please.....?

They are just circuits that can be set with a user specified value and
when that value is reached the alarm goes off. It does nothing else.

Post by Matt Smith
Matt "Please Santa bring me a Fuji with DI" Smith
Randy "All I want for Christmas is my P I D, my P I D..." G.

Thanks Randy

Santa has been in touch and suggested that at $169 a dual setpoint Fuji is
out of the question. :-(

However a slightly less up to date single set point controller may well be
forthcoming. Last dumb question then, given that the idea is to keep the
boilerheater on and/or have a slightly higher temperature while steaming for
extra oomph, could you just remove the steam Tstat altogether? And maybe set
the PID alarm to go off at 150 or something to prevent forgetfulness/
explosions. You would still have the backup of the safety Tstat to prevent
catastrophe, but wouldn't have the steam Tstat kicking off too soon. Or is
this just a recipe for disaster with the steam switch connected directly to
the heater going full bore?

Matt "what a carry on, it's not like I need big steam, no 20oz lattes here"
Smith

Andy Schecter

2003-12-21 14:19:44 UTC

Permalink

Post by Matt Smith
Last dumb question then, given that the idea is
to keep the boilerheater on and/or have a slightly higher temperature
while steaming for extra oomph, could you just remove the steam Tstat
altogether? And maybe set the PID alarm to go off at 150 or something
to prevent forgetfulness/ explosions. You would still have the backup
of the safety Tstat to prevent catastrophe, but wouldn't have the
steam Tstat kicking off too soon. Or is this just a recipe for
disaster with the steam switch connected directly to the heater going
full bore?

Forget about trying to use the alarms. Alarms are an extra-cost item, just like
the digital input.

If you require extra steaming power, you can either:
1. Set the PID controller for a higher setpoint when you steam, or
2. Turn the original steam switch on, then use the digital display to temp-surf.
If you begin steaming just before the steam t-stat turns the heater off, you'll
have a hell of a lot of steam.
3. Replace the steam tstat with a higher temp tstat, as Greg suggested a while
back.

--
-Andy S.

unknown

2003-12-21 18:09:08 UTC

Permalink

Post by Andy Schecter

Forget about trying to use the alarms. Alarms are an extra-cost item, just like
the digital input.
1. Set the PID controller for a higher setpoint when you steam, or
2. Turn the original steam switch on, then use the digital display to temp-surf.
If you begin steaming just before the steam t-stat turns the heater off, you'll
have a hell of a lot of steam.
3. Replace the steam tstat with a higher temp tstat, as Greg suggested a while
back.

Good advice, all, Andy. Bypassing or eliminating teh steam T stat is
dangerous to the health of the machine. I will say that your solution
#1 would get old in a hurry, though.

Randy "and they come with water based lubricant" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html

jlb

2003-12-21 18:22:41 UTC

Permalink

The reason I responded to these "PID" messages, was to try to clarfiy what
this "magic" (my words!!) really was and how it operated.

Randy, Andy and others have clarified many posts (very well!); I don't have
the expertise of having applied them to "espresso" machines, but have
applied them for many years in the "process" and "automation" industry.

"PID" simply refers to parameters that are "tuned" in the digital control
"loop", "fuzzy" parameters are sometimes tuned as well. I think if these
parameters as "variables" versus ON/OFF.

The PID digital control (used to be analog and PID parameters were tuned via
potentiometers!), used for these modifications have ONE sensor
(thermocouple, RTD, etc)INPUT and ONE OUTPUT, used to drive a "Solid State
Relay" (SSR) that simples turns the heater ON and OFF according to the
variables programmed or tuned. Due to the speed of the microprocessor
(microseconds!) and the speed of the SSR, heater can be controlled not to
overshoot (at least not like just ON/OFF!) and continues to cycle the heater
to keep setpoint.

This magic device will simple "control" the water and as has been said
(better than I have), replaces the brewing thermostat. (that is usually
on/off).

As Randy described; the 2nd setpoint is simply a "switch" that allows the
control to go to another setpoint with different "tuned" (or "PID"
parameters as all of you are fond of saying!!!) to sense from the SAME
sensor (thermocouple) and drive the SAME SSR that drives the heater. It is a
very elegant,sophisticated way to control the water temperature (steaming
too, as it comes from the same boiler!).

There are lots of factors that will play in the "brewing " process and
impact this circuit; obviously the "Silvia" does a great job with this mod;
time will tell if the "magic" continues with other machines!

jlb

Post by Andy Schecter

David F

2003-12-22 20:48:56 UTC

Permalink

Just found out a critical correction after talking with TTI Global. I
don't need a 2nd set point (or control output), since this would require
another SSR. Rather, the PXR3 controller provides an optional digital
input that can be used to contol the steam setting. This digital input
is simply a switch that closes a circuit and tells the controller to use
an alternate temp setting. So it connects to Silvia's steam switch. Turn
it off for the lower temp for pulling the shot. Turn it on for the
higher temp for steam. Both temp settings are adjustable of course.

This is an important correction, since others will google and find data
re dual setpoints. The PXR3 can be substituted for the PXV3 controller.
Same price w/o options, same dimensions, larger LCD, BUT different
output voltage. Make sure that the SSR matches. Probably not a problem,
since at least the one on Pepe's site is rated for 4-28 VDC.

Now, internal or external installation. Will decide soon.

David F.

unknown

2003-12-22 23:52:34 UTC

Permalink

That's GREAT news. So, the PXR3 has dual setpoints, user selectable
through an external switch, and has the OPTION of being a DUAL
controller with the "second set point option." They could have
explained that on their website more clearly....

Post by David F
Just found out a critical correction after talking with TTI Global. I
don't need a 2nd set point (or control output), since this would require
another SSR. Rather, the PXR3 controller provides an optional digital
input that can be used to contol the steam setting. This digital input
is simply a switch that closes a circuit and tells the controller to use
an alternate temp setting. So it connects to Silvia's steam switch. Turn
it off for the lower temp for pulling the shot. Turn it on for the
higher temp for steam. Both temp settings are adjustable of course.
This is an important correction, since others will google and find data
re dual setpoints. The PXR3 can be substituted for the PXV3 controller.
Same price w/o options, same dimensions, larger LCD, BUT different
output voltage. Make sure that the SSR matches. Probably not a problem,
since at least the one on Pepe's site is rated for 4-28 VDC.
Now, internal or external installation. Will decide soon.
David F.

temp.

Post by David F
Or is it really not worth bothering with dual set points. Btw, I'm
thinking of the internal approach like Pepe's.
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://my.execpc.com/~n9zes/pepesilvia/pepesilvia.html
http://www.flash.net/~jfmurphy/pidsilvia/
Thanks,
David F.

Randy "take the time to smell the coffee" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html

Andy Schecter

2003-12-23 03:32:05 UTC

Permalink

Post by unknown

Post by David F
Just found out a critical correction after talking with TTI Global. I
don't need a 2nd set point (or control output), since this would
require another SSR. Rather, the PXR3 controller provides an
optional digital input that can be used to contol the steam setting.
This digital input is simply a switch that closes a circuit and
tells the controller to use an alternate temp setting. So it
connects to Silvia's steam switch. Turn it off for the lower temp
for pulling the shot. Turn it on for the higher temp for steam. Both
temp settings are adjustable of course.
This is an important correction, since others will google and find
data re dual setpoints. The PXR3 can be substituted for the PXV3
controller. Same price w/o options, same dimensions, larger LCD, BUT
different output voltage. Make sure that the SSR matches. Probably
not a problem, since at least the one on Pepe's site is rated for
4-28 VDC.

You guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The minimum cost
Fuji PID for an espresso application is the PXR3-RCY1-4V.

If you are willing to spend $30 extra, order a PXR3-RCY1-4V-DI. Then, after
programming the controller, you can hook up an external switch and go to a
second setpoint (for steaming, or just for the hell of it) by flipping the
switch.

--
-Andy S.

unknown

2003-12-23 18:07:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by Andy Schecter
You guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The minimum cost
Fuji PID for an espresso application is the PXR3-RCY1-4V.
If you are willing to spend $30 extra, order a PXR3-RCY1-4V-DI. Then, after
programming the controller, you can hook up an external switch and go to a
second setpoint (for steaming, or just for the hell of it) by flipping the
switch.

From what David said, the minimum cost PXR3 has the capability to have
two set points programmed, and they are selected (A or B) by the
external, user-supplied toggle switch. The "Dual Set Point Option" for
the additional $35 (as I remember) adds the ability to control two
temperature 'systems' or devices through two separate SSRs.. Or did
_I_ get it wrong...?
Randy "it's getting hot in here" G.
http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html

Matt Smith

2003-12-23 23:01:45 UTC

Permalink

Post by unknown

We have confusion here between "setpoints" and "control outputs".

I'll stick my neck out having done a lot of PID purchase surfing these last
few days, I am -not sure- the basic PXR3 comes with the ability to have 2
different "setpoints" (not 100% on this!), what I am sure is that to toggle
between them easily you have to specify the $30 DI option *to have* some
terminals to hook your external toggle switch to. What I'm not certain and
can't see from the manual is whether you have to get the optional DI module
added *to get* the ability to have two setpoints in the first place.

$35 as above Randy is a different option for Control Output 2, this buys you
a 2nd "control output", ie: the ability to drive a 2nd totally separate SSR
or whatever, which is what you don't need for this job.

Matt "it's hot in here but not sure exactly how hot as no PID yet :-(" Smith

Andy Schecter

2003-12-24 01:15:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by Matt Smith
I am -not sure- the basic PXR3 comes with the
ability to have 2 different "setpoints" (not 100% on this!), what I
am sure is that to toggle between them easily you have to specify the
$30 DI option *to have* some terminals to hook your external toggle
switch to. What I'm not certain and can't see from the manual is
whether you have to get the optional DI module added *to get* the
ability to have two setpoints in the first place.

Yes, you have to spend the extra $30.

--
-Andy S.

Jack

2003-12-24 00:48:47 UTC

Permalink

My first post on AC, here we go:

Fuji makes two (excellent) 1/32 DIN fuzzy/PID controllers:

1. The slightly older PXV3. This controller has a single temperature
setpoint, costs $129, has a green LED display (which I think looks
good), and is excellent for Silvia boiler temp control.

2. The slightly newer PXR3. This controller has a base price of $129
(same as the PXV3), but has the option of adding a switch-controlled
second temperature setpoint for an additional $30. The display is a
bit larger than the PXV3, but uses red LEDS, which I think do not look
as good as the green LEDs.

Either controller will excel at temperature control of the boiler.
You could use the PXR3's second setpoint capability to control the
temperature of Silvia's boiler during steaming, and use the steam
switch to activate this second setpoint. You would not need a second
SSR. However, my personal opinion is controlling the steam
temperature might not provide $30 worth of benefit.

Plus, I just like green LEDs.

The PXR3 does have 16 segment ramp/soak capability verse 8 segment for
the PXV3, but this might be more useful for coffee bean roasters?

Jack (trying to engineer consistency, and loving green LEDs)

Andy Schecter

2003-12-24 01:15:41 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jack
1. The slightly older PXV3. This controller has a single temperature
setpoint, costs $129, has a green LED display (which I think looks
good), and is excellent for Silvia boiler temp control.
2. The slightly newer PXR3. This controller has a base price of $129
(same as the PXV3), but has the option of adding a switch-controlled
second temperature setpoint for an additional $30. The display is a
bit larger than the PXV3, but uses red LEDS, which I think do not look
as good as the green LEDs.
Either controller will excel at temperature control of the boiler.
You could use the PXR3's second setpoint capability to control the
temperature of Silvia's boiler during steaming, and use the steam
switch to activate this second setpoint. You would not need a second
SSR. However, my personal opinion is controlling the steam
temperature might not provide $30 worth of benefit.
Plus, I just like green LEDs.
The PXR3 does have 16 segment ramp/soak capability verse 8 segment for
the PXV3, but this might be more useful for coffee bean roasters?

Hi Jack:

I suspect that the newer PXR3 is cheaper to manufacture, even though it has the
larger display and fancier software.

--
-Andy S.

Andy Schecter

2003-12-24 01:15:40 UTC

Permalink

Post by unknown
From what David said, the minimum cost PXR3 has the capability to have
two set points programmed, and they are selected (A or B) by the
external, user-supplied toggle switch.

No, only one for the base $129 unit.

Post by unknown
The "Dual Set Point Option" for
the additional $35 (as I remember) adds the ability to control two
temperature 'systems' or devices through two separate SSRs.. Or did
_I_ get it wrong...?

No, the "digital input" option ($30) adds circuitry to the base unit that can
read an external switch. The controller can then be programmed so that the
external switch will conveniently trigger an internal function. One such
function would be to switch to a second setpoint (say for steaming). Another
function would be to initiate a time/temperature ("ramp/soak") program in a
roaster (that's the way I use mine).

The PXR3 cannot control two systems; that would require two inputs, two
setpoints, and two outputs.

The PXR3 can be supplied with two outputs, but typically, both outputs act upon
one system, one for heating and one for cooling. It's sort of like your home
thermostat, which might control heating in the winter and a/c in the summertime.

--
-Andy S.

David F

2003-12-24 01:36:38 UTC

Permalink

Randy, you're close, but don't have it quite right. Look at this site:
http://www.ttiglobal.com/products/pdf/pxr3.pdf, page 3 is a worksheet
for determining what options you want. They mfg each controller to order
and did mine today. If we do a 2nd Control Output, then we need a 2nd
SSR.

Actually, for this application they suggested "Additional Option, DI =
Digital input". This works as you said. Just attach to a switch. When
switch is on, it uses a 2nd temp setting. I believe this is how yours
works. However, they do not refer to it as a 2nd set point, although it
seems to fill that function.

Other comments posted by Andy, Matt, and Jack are all correct as I know.
Hope I like red, Jack. It's on it's way. :-) With the DI option.

btw, I'm thinking of doing an internal install similar to Pepe's, but on
further inspection it seems it would be easiest to just build a smallish
3-sided styrofoam box to partition off the controller. Covered with
aluminum AC duct tape I suspicion it will work as good or better than
Pepe did, but for a lot less work, *IMO*, not having done it yet.
Probably will drill a bunch of holes above & below controller, but I'm
not convinced they are needed. Gotta talk with Pepe. Will say outcome.

David F.

Post by unknown

flipping the

Post by unknown

Post by Andy Schecter
switch.