LaCara Espresso Maker

[BrianW]

Can anybody tell me anything about the LaCara. I heard they were the
same as the LaPavoni, just re badged. What would be a good price for one
in near mint condition? Are parts still available?
Thanks

BrianW

[Alan]

Can anybody tell me anything about the LaCara. I heard they were the same
as the LaPavoni, just re badged. What would be a good price for one in
near mint condition? Are parts still available?
Thanks
BrianW

Made in Spain for Thomas Cara Ltd (San Francisco).
Parts no longer available.
See: http://tinyurl.com/glmld (about halfway down the page).

[BrianW]

Post by Alan

Can anybody tell me anything about the LaCara. I heard they were the same
as the LaPavoni, just re badged. What would be a good price for one in
near mint condition? Are parts still available?
Thanks
BrianW

Made in Spain for Thomas Cara Ltd (San Francisco).
Parts no longer available.
See: http://tinyurl.com/glmld (about halfway down the page).

That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for saving me $150.

BrianW

[Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL]

Post by BrianW
Can anybody tell me anything about the LaCara. I heard they were the
same as the LaPavoni, just re badged. What would be a good price for one
in near mint condition? Are parts still available?

They were Spanish-made for Thomas Cara's espresso machine shop in San
Francisco in the 70s and 80s. Maybe in the early 90s, but I don't
think so. My understanding is that they were made by a Spanish
subsidiary of La Pavoni, without the approval of the Italian parent
company; when LaP in Italy found out about it, they squelched the
deal.

They are not complete copies of the contemporaneous La Pavoni
machines, but they are very similar. A bit less stylish, perhaps, but
with a bigger boiler and very robust construction. Mine has a
removable plug in the boiler that would allow it to be plumbed in;
perhaps LaP-Espana also made them for the small-bar market in Spain.

I also understand that many of the parts are interchangeable with La
Pavoni parts, especially the main piston seal. I expect that anything
other than that could be improvised. They are fairly simple machines.

Mine is in great shape and it works quite well. Like any manual lever
machine, it requires a fanatical devotion to exacting, ritualistic
techique, but it's capable of making great coffee if you're willing to
take the time to master it. It's got a lot more style that the
typical home pump machine, too.

As far as I know, Cara is still in business.

-Shel

[Alan]

"Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL" wrote
BrianW

Post by Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL

Post by BrianW
Can anybody tell me anything about the LaCara. I heard they were the
same as the LaPavoni, just re badged. What would be a good price for one
in near mint condition? Are parts still available?

They were Spanish-made for Thomas Cara's espresso machine shop in San
Francisco in the 70s and 80s. Maybe in the early 90s, but I don't
think so. My understanding is that they were made by a Spanish
subsidiary of La Pavoni, without the approval of the Italian parent
company; when LaP in Italy found out about it, they squelched the
deal.
They are not complete copies of the contemporaneous La Pavoni
machines, but they are very similar. A bit less stylish, perhaps, but
with a bigger boiler and very robust construction. Mine has a
removable plug in the boiler that would allow it to be plumbed in;
perhaps LaP-Espana also made them for the small-bar market in Spain.
I also understand that many of the parts are interchangeable with La
Pavoni parts, especially the main piston seal. I expect that anything
other than that could be improvised. They are fairly simple machines.
Mine is in great shape and it works quite well. Like any manual lever
machine, it requires a fanatical devotion to exacting, ritualistic
techique, but it's capable of making great coffee if you're willing to
take the time to master it. It's got a lot more style that the
typical home pump machine, too.
As far as I know, Cara is still in business.
-Shel

Yes, Cara is still in business in San Francisco. And he carries plenty of
Pavoni parts. But before you assume interchangeability with Pavoni parts and
the ease of improvisation, you might want to consider what Christopher Cara
had to say about La Cara:

" ... 'On eBay I saw something called La Cara,' I said.

'Yes, that was my father's. It was made in Spain and he sold it here, but
don't buy it because I have no parts for it,' Mr. Cara said. 'Using
substitute parts for repairs would be dangerous', Mr. Cara said, because
'you're dealing with a steam pressure mechanism and you don't want something
to just pop off and then you've got the pressure all over you, do you?' ...
"
(http://tinyurl.com/glmld)

[Simpson]

In article <8PdBg.5160$***@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
***@hotmail.com says...
snip

Post by Alan
" ... 'On eBay I saw something called La Cara,' I said.
'Yes, that was my father's. It was made in Spain and he sold it here, but
don't buy it because I have no parts for it,' Mr. Cara said. 'Using
substitute parts for repairs would be dangerous', Mr. Cara said, because
'you're dealing with a steam pressure mechanism and you don't want something
to just pop off and then you've got the pressure all over you, do you?' ...
"
(http://tinyurl.com/glmld)

Truly I don't know, but that has the ring of something someone would say
who fixes a limited number of things by rote and who doesn't really
understand what he is doing. "...and then you've got the pressure all
over you..." is about the least technically accurate way I can think of
to discuss the risks of pressure and steam. And does he know the same
part may have different part numbers?

Ted

[Alan]

"Simpson" wrote >

Post by Simpson
snip

Post by Alan
" ... 'On eBay I saw something called La Cara,' I said.
'Yes, that was my father's. It was made in Spain and he sold it here, but
don't buy it because I have no parts for it,' Mr. Cara said. 'Using
substitute parts for repairs would be dangerous', Mr. Cara said, because
'you're dealing with a steam pressure mechanism and you don't want something
to just pop off and then you've got the pressure all over you, do you?' ...
"
(http://tinyurl.com/glmld)

Truly I don't know, but that has the ring of something someone would say
who fixes a limited number of things by rote and who doesn't really
understand what he is doing. "...and then you've got the pressure all
over you..." is about the least technically accurate way I can think of
to discuss the risks of pressure and steam. And does he know the same
part may have different part numbers?
Ted

Since the quote was in the context of a casual conversation related in a
Sunday New York Times feature article, I'd say you'd have to forgive Mr Cara
for being less than "technically accurate".
And since Mr Cara's shop is one of only two in the US authorized for La
Pavoni repair, and since La Cara was produced for his father, I'd give Mr
Cara credit for knowing something about parts interchangeability and parts
numbering . . . but then, what do I know?

[Jack Denver]

To me it has the ring of someone (a) who is maybe interested in selling new
machines instead of parts for old ones and (b) is concerned about liability
and would rather that you put that 20 year old machine in need of gaskets in
the trash where it can't sue him.

As the others had said, these machines are pretty simple and unless you
really tried hard and were really dumb (not that some people aren't) it
would be difficult to have "pressure all over you" - more likely you
wouldn't get a seal and you wouldn't have pressure at all.

That being said, these machines are IMHO museum pieces and I'd avoid any
small home lever machine - yes you can get them to work and even produce one
or two shots of excellent coffee before the group overheats, but the
technology has improved and in a world of PID controls, vibrating pumps,
etc. there's no reason to put up with the idiosyncrasies of one of these old
machines on a daily basis. To me they're like the antique car you keep in
the garage - fun to take for a spin on weekends, but I wouldn't want to
count on one for a daily commute - there's no power brakes, no A/C, etc.

Post by Alan
"Simpson" wrote >

Post by Simpson
snip

Post by Alan
" ... 'On eBay I saw something called La Cara,' I said.
'Yes, that was my father's. It was made in Spain and he sold it here, but
don't buy it because I have no parts for it,' Mr. Cara said. 'Using
substitute parts for repairs would be dangerous', Mr. Cara said, because
'you're dealing with a steam pressure mechanism and you don't want something
to just pop off and then you've got the pressure all over you, do you?' ...
"
(http://tinyurl.com/glmld)

Truly I don't know, but that has the ring of something someone would say
who fixes a limited number of things by rote and who doesn't really
understand what he is doing. "...and then you've got the pressure all
over you..." is about the least technically accurate way I can think of
to discuss the risks of pressure and steam. And does he know the same
part may have different part numbers?
Ted

Since the quote was in the context of a casual conversation related in a
Sunday New York Times feature article, I'd say you'd have to forgive Mr
Cara for being less than "technically accurate".
And since Mr Cara's shop is one of only two in the US authorized for La
Pavoni repair, and since La Cara was produced for his father, I'd give Mr
Cara credit for knowing something about parts interchangeability and parts
numbering . . . but then, what do I know?

[notbob]

Post by Jack Denver
To me it has the ring of someone (a) who is maybe interested in selling new
machines instead of parts for old ones.....

A reasonable assumption if one has no experience with the Cara
brothers. But, you couldn't be more wrong. If you'd ever been to
their store, you'd know that a large part of their business is keeping
ancient home espresso machines doing what they were designed to do.
While the front of the shop is a new and shiny display of the latest
med-to-big buck home espresso machines (no plastic, here), the back
shelf, where the machines repaired and to-be-repaired are stored,
looks like a warp back into time. Every weird shape and design
imaginable ...and un-imaginable!... I've seen on those shelves. If
there is anyone in the US that actively works to keep old home
espresso machines alive, it's John Cara. In fact, John, the
repairman, is rarely seen, usually keeping to his workshop. He has
nothing to do with sales, whatsoever. You can rest assured if the
Cara brothers say it can't be repaired, it can't be repaired. End of
story. If you still have any doubts as to their integrity, digest
this little factoid. Despite being official La Pavoni dealers/reps,
The Cara's will not sell you a La Pavoni home grinder. They don't
like 'em and will tell you why (wimpy motor prone to failure). Hardly
the actions of an unscrupulous merchant.

Post by Jack Denver
etc. there's no reason to put up with the idiosyncrasies of one of these old
machines on a daily basis.

On that point I'll agree. And, even though I've seen Chris Cara pull
good shots from his always-on hard plumbed Electra (Olympia? I
forget) lever machine, with his signature zero-lb tamp, I've done with
my Pavoni. While I could occasionally pull good shots from my Euro,
even my most inept efforts on my Solis are consistently superior.
While the big commercial levers may have the size to be consistent,
the pocket rocket levers are now just outdated technology, a curiosity
and conversation piece, at best.

nb

[Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL]

Post by Alan
Yes, Cara is still in business in San Francisco. And he carries plenty of
Pavoni parts. But before you assume interchangeability with Pavoni parts and
the ease of improvisation, you might want to consider what Christopher Cara
" ... 'On eBay I saw something called La Cara,' I said.
'Yes, that was my father's. It was made in Spain and he sold it here, but
don't buy it because I have no parts for it,' Mr. Cara said. 'Using
substitute parts for repairs would be dangerous', Mr. Cara said, because
'you're dealing with a steam pressure mechanism and you don't want something
to just pop off and then you've got the pressure all over you, do you?' ...
"

I liked Chris Cara when I met him. It may be that the La Cara's main
piston seal isn't compatible with the older La Pavoni machines, but
I've heard otherwise from other sources. I suppose I'll get to find
out some day.

However, I'd dispute the "pressure all over you" bit.

If the main seal won't hold pressure, you aren't going to have any
pressure to worry about. If it does, well, anyone with a home
non-spring lever machine is used to dealing with the pressure.
Firstly, the operator provides the brew pressure, and, secondly, if
you foozle the grind, you have to know how to relieve the machine's
pressure. Oh, and then there are the "sneezes."

Unless you do something fairly stupid with the pressure relief valves,
the machine's boiler's internal pressure is fairly low, not much
higher than a moka pot's. If you dump it all out of the brew head, it
would be messy, but it's not aimed at the operator.

Improvisation is the at the heart of all true repairs. If the design,
workmanship, and materials had been perfect, the chance of a repair
being neccessary at all is remote. In many cases, the purpose of a
repair is to improve the original and overcome its original defects.
Sometimes you can do this by replacing the original part ith an exact
duplicate of that part. Sometimes the original part itself is the
problem, and you must seek a superior alternative. Not everyone is
qualified to do this.

Not all improvisations are improvements, either in jazz or in espresso
machines. I would expect that ham-fisted amateur improvisations are
the bane of John Cara's existence.

I'm sure Chris's heart is in the right place, and I'm sure a more
modern pump machine would be more satisfactory than a lever machine
for 99% of the populace, but I think he's being a bit of an alarmist
about the repairs.

-Shel